I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#311

Post by ch4s3 » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

kumarvvr wrote: post #40

ETH_start wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. We have reliable indicators of pre-modern poverty levels [1], and they were indeed brutal. India (in the mythical pre-invasion period) was no exception. [2] >>Most of the population lived in thatched huts or wood beam supported houses constructed from soil based cement like stuff. I assume this was true all over the world. This is what extreme poverty (pervasive in pre-modern times, aand still prese…

Depends on what you mean by poverty. I mean, how does one even measure it a 1000 years ago. I am suspicious of these reports. Every country has a history of good times and bad times. However, the culture of India is unique in the sense that the most strongest unit was the collective society and cultural practices (food donation being held as the highest ideal, practical prohibition of sale of food, a multitude of rit…

There have been plenty of collectivist societies in history and some had gift economies, this isn’t really unique. There are several Native American cultures that would have fit the same description. You could even see a faint parallel in cross-tribal clan membership.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#312

Post by kortilla » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 6:01 PM UTC

kumarvvr wrote: post #198

kortilla wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People had a much worse life expectancy back than. Babies frequently died. Treatable illnesses were just death sentences (e.g. type 1 diabetes). > Modern living in convenient, but not healthy. Is luxurious, but not cheap. Is plentiful, but not sustainable. You’re very confused if you think the way people lived in India 1000 years ago was sustainable. Packing up the village when a well ran dry should hint at something…

By sustainability, I meant environmental sustainability. Indians cooked in earthen pots, ate in banana leaves, wore hand woven clothes and the local economies were largely self sufficient.

You mentioned villages running wells dry and moving. That’s not sustainable.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#313

Post by verisimi » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #295

verisimi wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historians have absolutely no trouble with the idea that the archive can produce multiple narratives and that no narrative is the absolute truth. and > I find it frustrating to see so many people with no or minimal background in anything resembling the discipline making wide proclamations about the limitations of history writing. I think I already made the same point as you, ie that no narrative is the absolute tru…

Your comment has a very strong connotation of "therefore history writing is either to be mistrusted or even downright wrong." You argue that history writing is a tool of the state or other power structures rather than honest analysis by competing professionals. That interpretation does not follow from the understanding that history writing is construction of narrative. I think you are unreasonably critical of histori…

Do you not think that historical writing is a tool of the state or, as I prefer to call it, the governance system? (I think the state is also a part of the governance system, a red v blue puppet show.)

I hesitate to mention this, but here is an overt example of state management. You know it is a criminal offence to discuss certain events in World War 2 in many countries, including Germany and Canada? I use this as an example to illustrate that honest analysis of history is not possible if there is no freedom of speech. If potentially important information is unavailable, we are being 'guardrailed' - only certain authorised lines of thought can occur. History is not a naturally unfolding cronicle of reality.

For the masses, it is even more simple - just manage what is on the school syllabus and they will never know. But, they will believe what they are taught is true as it is presented unambiguously, rather than a provided narrative - we agree on this. This is intentional - the main value of history is that it is accepted as truth. History is what is expedient for the masses to believe in the present. Only sanctioned historians can alter it.

Also, do you realise that professional historians typically live their entire lives beholden to the state for their livelihoods? Could you risk biting the hand that feeds you?

So, I think it is quite possible that the historians believe they are being honest and well-intentioned AND also be supportive of the governance structure. Their education will provide them with a clear but narrow sense of what is acceptable. They will know when they are flying close to the wire or over-stepping the line.

I don't think this is a history specific issue btw. I think all education serves a role, though most people are unaware of how they are guided through their lives. So science, history, economics, technology, etc, etc have all been bent to serve a purpose that is not in our interests. We can pretend it isn't so if we like... but the evidence is there when we look.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#314

Post by rajup » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 6:16 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #304

tlogan wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Nordic countries become Christian just in 12th century. And it took considerably longer for actual Christian beliefs to establish themselves among the people in these regions. So all these “don’t bath” nonsense promoted by pope was ignored (like, Pope Innocent IV passed the verdict against Frederick II of being a heathen. The first accusation on his list was the King bathed daily.) In short, people did not wanted…

> But Nordic countries become Christian just in 12th century Which is neither here, nor there, as Christian countries still bathed just fine. > So all these “don’t bath” nonsense promoted by pope was ignored They were ignored in Christian countries, include Rome and Byzantium, anyway. Not to mention, they weren't meant that way anyway. From TFA: "It’s true that we have medieval sources which warn against “excessive”…

Being vegan is holy? Which religion?

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#315

Post by pySSK » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 6:39 PM UTC

turtleyacht wrote: post #292

msravi wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, no, they don't. They describe a jaati system, and a varna system, both of which do not take the same meaning as caste. The british conflated the two, and invented caste. The jaati system was a system of hereditary professional guilds - so you'd have different jaatis for accountants (Kulkarnis for example), farmers (Vokkaligas), teachers (Upaadhyayas), etc. The professional skill was jealously guarded and generall…

This is interesting. Thank-you. Could you elaborate on the next piece from this idea? For example, from jaati and varna , what follows from that? Admittedly, a vague question but wanting to learn a bit more. Just saying this is the first perspective on HN I have read about caste being inaccurate, and wanting to understand this fresh context.

It is revisionist nonsense.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#316

Post by sushid » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #242

aasasd wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but can I get a schematic of how that's supposed to work? The opening on the pechka is on the side—what, you slide inside like in an MRI and then somehow chuck water onto yourself? Pretty sure just filling a proper wooden tub with the hot water is a lot simpler. For the context, back in my childhood I spent several summers in a house with a pechka (it's still there), and visited a couple others. Those could onl…

https://youtu.be/pUHApERY0G8

Thank you! So it's like a warm sponge bath.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#317

Post by anyfoo » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 6:56 PM UTC

sdwr wrote: post #66

anyfoo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've noticed that the more I exercise, the cleaner + healthier my skin is. Showers only get me partly there Define "cleaner"? What is not clean about your skin that requires exercise to get clean? After every shower, my skin is just "clean"?

My face skin looks way better with regular exercise. Something about the pores + overall tone. I start to notice a difference after 2 sedentary days, and am repulsed by it after a week+ without exercise. I also get a musk coming from my groin that seems to seep through clothes, and is barely affected by showering. By sedentary I mean full-on jacked-in to the Matrix, 14 hour days on the computer. Someone with a more b…

Interesting. Exercising has positive effects on me, but my skin seems unaffected. (I certainly believe you, though.)

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#318

Post by monetus » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 7:39 PM UTC

ch4s3 wrote: post #310

monetus wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India Seems like the British systems formed and formalized it, but that that itself was an amalgam of the cultural stratification that was sometimes already there. Multiculturalism turned monstrous... sad.

There have been a number of genetic studies[1] that can identify caste heredity going back to almost the time of the Vedas showing VERY little genetic mixing between the castes. [1] https://hms.harvard.edu/news/genetic-study-finds-caste-syste...

I think the link through in that article is sadly dead, but I still found it.

Wow, that is less intermingling than I would have guessed. I knew that caste had been there for ages, but it is still a bit astonishing to read that.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#319

Post by Archelaos » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 7:45 PM UTC

zwirbl wrote: post #141

Archelaos wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... and Wikipedia alleges the same in their article: >> Although it has been claimed that soap-making was introduced to the West from the Levant after the First Crusades, in fact, soap was known to the Romans in the first century AD and Zosimos of Panopolis described soap and soapmaking in c. 300 AD. ... and the article on "Soap" has a lot more to say about the history of soap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap#Hi…

But it's not even an essay, isn't it? I found the style in the historic context refreshing, but I wouldn't want to read a history book written this way

> But it's not even an essay, isn't it?

I was using the term "essay" because its definition is so vague that almost any short not so academically strict non-fiction text may be called an "essay", at least in a wide sense. (And you can even call a rather austere text that deals with a broader subject an "essay", like Hume's Essays.)

But I am open for a better alternative: So if we have a short non-fiction text that wants to make a statement in a more casual style, how would you classify it instead?

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#320

Post by Tagbert » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 7:52 PM UTC

mongol wrote: post #264

kzrdude wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, laugardagr is the etymology, isn't it? The modern shapes of this weekday name are still used in the scandinavian languages, and Icelandic, Finnish and Estonian.

Yes could be, it is obvious they are related, I don't know if laugardagr is the original or if they have common roots.

laugardagr is the Old Norse word. Swedish developed from Old Norse (as did Norwegian and Danish). The Swedish lördag is derived from laugardagr.

The “laug” portion comes from Old High German “louga”, from PIE root leue- "to wash."

The “dagr” portion comes from the PIE root agh- "a day" with an initial “d” added as part of Old High German. OHG is the ancestor of Old Norse.

This is from Etymonline - a great resource for language information https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=laug