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High property taxes are good

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Re: High property taxes are good

#311

Post by staringback »

theluketaylor wrote: post #62
conductr wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A land value tax would incentivize residential landowners to build more units which provides more supply and would lower rents Zoning usually dictates what's allowed and is indifferent to tax rates

One of the many reasons exclusionary zoning needs to die in a fire. The urban housing crisis has been allowed to grow for decades, so we're long past any single solution, but I'm increasingly convinced no combination of fixes can succeed while exclusionary zoning still exists. Japanese-style inclusionary zoning splits the difference nicely between making sure people don't live next to loud, potentially dangerous indu…

US home ownership: 65%

Japan home ownership: 61%

Yet there is such a housing crisis in the states due to the "zoning" bogeyman

Re: High property taxes are good

#312

Post by mring33621 »

horsawlarway wrote: post #264
raldi wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let property owners declare a value for their land, and give anyone the right to buy it for 120% of that value at any time, with the existing owner given a grace period where they can restate their estimate.

My strong suspicion is that this will completely fuck over the elderly and marginalized communities. It also requires property owners to do EXTENSIVE research and information gathering CONSTANTLY to ensure that the number they put down is reasonable. Many of them literally can't (ex: my 87 year old Neighbor Phylis doesn't care what her house is worth, because she plans to die in it, and isn't seeking to maximize util…

"It also requires property owners to do EXTENSIVE research and information gathering CONSTANTLY"

Every year in Chicago.

My house has been, and still is, assessed for 600K over what I paid in Nov. 2021. It had been on the market since 2016, until I bought it. The price I paid is the value of the house.

First assessment appeal denied.

Second appeal lost in the system.

We have to fight against an unfair and arbitrary tax system EVERY year.

Now they are going to index the tax rate to inflation.

Maybe other communities are under-taxed, but mine is not.

Re: High property taxes are good

#313

Post by tptacek »

zamalek wrote: post #305
tptacek wrote: post #119

High property taxes are clearly not intrinsically good; they're passed on to renters, and so they decrease affordability. Land value taxes sidestep this (increasing density decreases marginal tax burden on tenants), but they're not going to happen. You have to design policy for the world we actually have, not the one you'd prefer to live in. (Property taxes are a real problem where I live; we're an upper-middle-class…

While true, renting is a roach motel no matter what property taxes are.

Obviously this isn't true at all.

Re: High property taxes are good

#314

Post by parineum »

ketchupdebugger wrote: post #282

property taxes are used to pay for services that the local government provides. when property taxes are high, it means that either the local government is proving more services, the local government is in debt and needs to raise taxes to finance its debt, or the cost of those basic services has risen. At the end of the day your local government needs to spend almost every penny it gets. If they have extra money, they…

Property taxes paying for local services keeps poor people poor. I don't understand why people think this is ethical.

Property tax is possibly the worst way to fund the government. The only thing it's really good at is imposing a market force. It's largely regressive. In fact it's almost identical to gas tax.

All flat taxes are regressive.

Re: High property taxes are good

#315

Post by googlryas »

TimPC wrote: post #187
hammock wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difference without a meaningful distinction. Houses are bought on credit, that credit isn’t approved without an appraisal that supports the price being paid, and that appraisal is done using comps similar to a tax assessment.

My city assesses land and structure value separately as part of property taxes so having them assess just land instead seems like less work not more.

Mine does that too, but the process is clearly flawed because you can't buy land for the assessed price, and you can't build a structure on that land for the assessed value.

Re: High property taxes are good

#316

Post by landemva »

Loughla wrote: post #241
landemva wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a town like this. 'Roads' are actually reciprocal easements to allow all other land owners to pass. Each lot has water well and septic, though one group of houses has a large shared water system which pools the individual well permits. Electricity and gas and internet are private companies using an easement. Police and fire can easily be funded by sales tax, just like the public transit. Alternatively, land…

If you don't mind me asking, where do you live? Because my area is very similar, but all 'reciprocal easements allowing owners to pass' are all based on county/state law, and enforced via such. Anything paved, tar/chipped, graveled, or traveled via dirt is a county road and subject to county maintenance and oversight.

> subject to county maintenance and oversight.

Incorporate a town and do what you want. After incorporating, set up contract to pay county to do maintenance until the town has time to bid it out.

Curious thing here is that with the limited ability of the town to meddle, town council election is occasionally cancelled because it is not contested. There is little to fight over, so not a lot of grift or power.

Am west of Mississippi river.

Re: High property taxes are good

#317

Post by TimPC »

googlryas wrote: post #315
TimPC wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My city assesses land and structure value separately as part of property taxes so having them assess just land instead seems like less work not more.

Mine does that too, but the process is clearly flawed because you can't buy land for the assessed price, and you can't build a structure on that land for the assessed value.

Just because it’s not possible to separately buy the structure or the land doesn’t mean the numbers are wrong. The point still stands that taxing land disincentivizes nothing while taxing structures discourages building them. Many towns in Pennsylvania had a pretty good track record with this. They implemented a mixed tax system that focused more taxes on land and less on structures because they wanted to make people sitting on empty land and not using it pay more. They also didn’t want to penalize people for upgrading their home. The system was extremely successful in its aims.

Re: High property taxes are good

#318

Post by tptacek »

sokoloff wrote: post #307
tptacek wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an immense giveway to the top income quintiles, which receive between 70-80% of the benefit, and giving "prospective owners" preference over "landlords" practically by definition reduces density and thus affordability.

It's not about giving preference to owner-occupants; it's about neutralizing the preference to landlords that would otherwise result.

Again, that is inherently a policy decision that reduces density and affordability; by definition, "landlords" are people that own and operate multi-family dwellings. You could just as easily ask "why not give more of a preference to landlords?"

It's probably useful for you to understand my, uh, priors? about this, which include the fact that I live in an overwhelmingly SFZ community that actively works to prevent the construction of multi-family dwellings, often with appeals to the evil of "landlords".

Re: High property taxes are good

#319

Post by [deleted] »

gedy wrote: post #72
crisdux wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing something. It's not about blame, that doesn't matter. People are lashing out. It's about anger at the system. It's becoming increasingly obvious that recently a large part of our personal prosperity is based on incumbency. Our government is routinely breaking social contracts which maintain order. That makes people angry at the system, government and their fellow citizens.

> That makes people angry at the system, government and their fellow citizens. The "system" and governments frequently prefer angry people direct their rage at other citizens instead of them! QED

[deleted]

Re: High property taxes are good

#320

Post by unethical_ban »

vanilla_nut wrote: post #2

In my region of northern New Hampshire, there are a lot of retired folks with houses rising from $200k-ish values to closer to $500k-ish values in the last 5-10 years. As such, there's a lot of discussion around lowering property taxes to help these retirees. In my opinion? Fuck 'em. Property taxes are a brilliant method of perfectly progressive taxation: you can always choose to live in a cheaper home. If your home…

So, politicians get voted in, raise property taxes to extort established neighborhoods into selling because they can no longer afford the government's shakedown of their residence, so the corrupt politicians' business associates can purchase the properties and rent them.
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