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Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

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Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#311

Post by pessimizer »

runnerup wrote: post #293
wahnfrieden wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

What makes it incorrect? I'm a leftist and I can see that this is leftist propaganda. I don't necessarily disagree with all of it, but I recognize it for what it is! The vast majority of material on reddit.com is propaganda. The fact that lots of people buy into it and it becomes self-perpetuating doesn't make it any less propaganda. The fact that it was started by individual true believers also doesn't make it any l…

You're just using the word "propaganda" as a euphemism for things you disapprove of.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#312

Post by filoleg »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #264
spacemanmatt wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that lifetime ban on working for the Krogers may have represented a much bigger threat to Mr. Manager than it ever would to you

pmc and workers aren't allies

How are private military contractors related to Kroger workers, and why are they expected (or not) to be allies in the first place?

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#313

Post by mrinterweb »

IMTDb wrote: post #295
noisy_boy wrote: post #5

> The ALU may ask you to sign an authorization card or share a QR code to fill out an online authorization card. > This is a legally binding document Ooh scary ... is the employment contract signed by Amazon's employees not legally binding? How is it Amazon's business what their grown-ass employees can or cannot sign? > By signing a card or filling out an online authorization form, you are providing the ALU your pers…

>> By signing a card or filling out an online authorization form, you are authorizing the ALU to speak on your behalf. > And thats terrible how? You really can't see the issue with authorising a group you have little to no control over, speak on your behalf ? I can totally understand that people share some views with what unions are currently defending. But the requirement on signing a paper that says "whatever the u…

Unions are kind of like electing congressional representatives. You and your peers elect someone to represent their interests. Its democratic representation. When it comes to a company making changes benefiting workers, collective bargaining is far more powerful than a single worker voice.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#314

Post by naasking »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #310
pessimizer wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "whatever the union currently says and will say in the future 100% represents my point of view" Is that what it says? It says that you have to agree to be legally responsible for the union's opinions on netflix shows, or of your cousin's marriage? No, it says that you're agreeing for them to represent you with the company, not some made-up all-encompassing scaremongering paraphrasing of that.

The same criticism still works, though. I can like their position for negotiating with Amazon today, without necessarily having to agree that I'm going to like it forever. Mind you, I'm not necessarily on Amazon's side here. Their scare-mongering is pretty slimy, to say no more. But IMTDb's objection is valid, even adjusted for your criticism.

That's true of any system based on democratic rule. It's not much of a criticism because it's still better than anything else that we've come up with.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#315

Post by AnimalMuppet »

kennywinker wrote: post #281
mh- wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Election votes are anonymous by nature. Card signing is not. I'm not opposed to unionizing but I take issue with the idea that getting 50% support means "it is obvious that they don't need an election."

It seems like you’re saying the lack of anonymity will inflate support for a union. I.e. organizers will be able to pressure people who would otherwise vote no on a union. Frankly, I’d be worried about the opposite. Knowing how aggressively amazon is fighting unions, if I worked there i’d hesitate to put my name down on paper - when I wouldn’t hesitate to vote in a secret ballot. If that’s the case, 50% support impli…

Historically, there have been times when intimidation came from the union. There have also been times when intimidation came from management. So, yeah. Secret ballot.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#316

Post by naasking »

smugma wrote: post #134
photochemsyn wrote: post #10

Realistically an Amazon-wide union is the only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China, without having any cross-border capital flow penalities (neoliberal globalism in a nutshell), then the major employers like Amazon and Walmart are going to have to double their w…

Amazon has significantly increased wages. They were at the forefront of the $15 wage, more than double the federal minimum wage. I think at the time Walmart was at $10 or $11. I live in very liberal SF but outside of my bubble, I hear people complain that it’s not possible to hire Nannies/housecleaners/employees anymore when Amazon and Starbucks pay $18/hr. Seems like the answer is easy: pay them more or make the job…

> Amazon has significantly increased wages. They were at the forefront of the $15 wage

Warehouse workers before Amazon were making over $20/hr. Amazon seriously depressed wages for that kind of work. How do you think they got so profitable and outcompeted everyone else in that space?

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#317

Post by kennywinker »

mh- wrote: post #282
kennywinker wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you’re saying the lack of anonymity will inflate support for a union. I.e. organizers will be able to pressure people who would otherwise vote no on a union. Frankly, I’d be worried about the opposite. Knowing how aggressively amazon is fighting unions, if I worked there i’d hesitate to put my name down on paper - when I wouldn’t hesitate to vote in a secret ballot. If that’s the case, 50% support impli…

Probably both! That's why we shouldn't guess, and votes are secret for a reason.

Ah yes, let’s make a rule that makes a difficult process (unionization) for a vulnerable group (workers) more difficult, based on a vague theory about imagined pressure being applied. Sounds like solid reasoning to me.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#318

Post by kennywinker »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #315
kennywinker wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you’re saying the lack of anonymity will inflate support for a union. I.e. organizers will be able to pressure people who would otherwise vote no on a union. Frankly, I’d be worried about the opposite. Knowing how aggressively amazon is fighting unions, if I worked there i’d hesitate to put my name down on paper - when I wouldn’t hesitate to vote in a secret ballot. If that’s the case, 50% support impli…

Historically, there have been times when intimidation came from the union. There have also been times when intimidation came from management. So, yeah. Secret ballot.

> People call the current National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) election system a secret ballot election—but in fact it's not like any democratic election held anywhere else in our society. It's really a management-controlled election process because corporations have all the power. They control the information workers can receive and routinely poison the process by intimidating, harassing, coercing and even firing people who try to organize unions.

(via https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_check)

Without reforming the secret ballot process, you’re just handing power to the companies by advocating against card-checks

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#319

Post by 8note »

ghastmaster wrote: post #294
feet wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Another metric: "How long does it take to earn enough for my baseline expenses (rent, food, health, retirement money, etc.)". In my opinion, this is the only valid metric. If a business cannot pay people enough to live, the business should not exist. Businesses do not have more of a right to exist than the workers that make them up. Full stop.

> If a business cannot pay people enough to live, the business should not exist. I'll assume you are talking about full time all year jobs. Each one of the baseline expenses defined above are not nominally set in stone. They are different for every person. I might define baseline food as beans and rice, while others might define it as steak and lobster. The same goes for the other baseline expenses defined above. Thi…

Transacting is one aspect of business - ownership is much more important, and only exists as far as the government enforces it.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#320

Post by mh- »

kennywinker wrote: post #318
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, there have been times when intimidation came from the union. There have also been times when intimidation came from management. So, yeah. Secret ballot.

> People call the current National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) election system a secret ballot election—but in fact it's not like any democratic election held anywhere else in our society. It's really a management-controlled election process because corporations have all the power. They control the information workers can receive and routinely poison the process by intimidating, harassing, coercing and even firing p…

(That quote comes from the AFL-CIO, not Wikipedia editors, for the curious.)
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