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EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

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Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#311

Post by josefx »

londons_explore wrote: post #124
zosima wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry, as this is not about child sex abuse anyway. The legislators know, from experience, that it's hard to argue against measures to protect children from predators, and so they are free to launch controversial and unacceptable measures. Once in place, it will be extended to other purposes. The same as always.

The thing is, with current 'privacy-protecting scanner' designs, the scanner is running on every end users device, and it would be fairly simple for an expert to dump out the list of things being looked for. That in turn makes such a system far less useful to intelligence services and authoritarian regimes. You don't want to tell your target that you're looking for them and which keywords not to use! I wonder if this…

> and it would be fairly simple for an expert to dump out the list of things being looked for.

I think the Apple design used some fancy tricks to run the comparisons without ever decrypting the reference data and even if that wasn't possible almost every new device comes with some kind of "trusted" platform module that only "trusted" actors can access.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#312

Post by rmbyrro »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #144
hulitu wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your government who wants to control you. Or do you still think that data is collected just so that Google can give you more ads ?

> Your government who wants to control you How exactly? In Italy we had 67 different governments since 1946. What can they do with CSAM data? Government can't blackmail citizen, they can't use CSAM scans for other purposes, they can't even authorize a scan, because that's the justice system prerogative. Do you really believe that in Europe governments are in control of everything like it happens in Russia or in North…

Does anyone know whether one can get more naive than that?

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#313

Post by peoplefromibiza »

School-Cotton wrote: post #292
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have definitely not had 67 different governments I've studied English, not American. So government to me means means "the group of people who officially control a country", like in this BBC headline "Netanyahu out as new Israeli government approved" . We definitely had 67 governments. Or 67 cabinets, if you prefer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Ita...

> I've studied English, not American. Regardless, if debating in good faith you should respond to what people clearly mean, not to what you feel the words they’re using should mean in “correct” English. > Or 67 cabinets, if you prefer. Absolutely nobody is disputing this. The Wikipedia link is unnecessary.

> Regardless, if debating in good faith you should respond to what people clearly mean, not to what you feel the words they’re using should mean in “correct” English.

you're wrong: I never said I was using the correct English, I said that in the English that I have studied it is called a government.

It's called government here too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Italy#Executive_...

I'm not making up words. If in America it means something different it's irrelevant, we're not talking about America.

> Absolutely nobody is disputing this. The Wikipedia link is unnecessary.

Reptetita iuvant.

Anyway, somebody was disputing this

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31353588

You have definitely not had 67 different governments since 1946

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#314

Post by stephen_g »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #287
hans_castorp wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you really believe that in Europe governments are in control of everything like it happens in Russia or in North Korea? It certainly feels, as if they are trying to do that.

> It certainly feels, as if they are trying to do that. Putin's been there for 22 years, Kim is there by rights of birth, in my country the PM has been there for 18 months and it looks like he's not going to last till the natural end of the legislature, in 2023. His career as dictator 4 life looks pretty bleak from my POV.

Well I guess that’s where the idea of the “deep state” or “shadow Government” comes from. Obviously I don’t think it’s true to anywhere near the extent that many conspiratorially minded people do, but I think there could be some truth to it, in that there are bureaucrats (especially in intelligence) in many countries who probably do have too much power and too little scrutiny and accountability over what they do, who manage to keep their positions for long periods of time and abuse their positions for various ends and reasons.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#315

Post by rmbyrro »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #227
School-Cotton wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Italy we had 67 different governments since 1946. Colloquially when Americans say “government” they are referring to the entire state, including not just elected officials but professional civil servants, police, courts, intelligence agencies, etc. You have definitely not had 67 different governments since 1946 in the sense that I think was meant.

> You have definitely not had 67 different governments I've studied English, not American. So government to me means means "the group of people who officially control a country", like in this BBC headline "Netanyahu out as new Israeli government approved" . We definitely had 67 governments. Or 67 cabinets, if you prefer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Ita...

Every country I'm aware of people also use government as a loose reference to the whole monster of state, branches (judiciary, executive, etc), constitution, laws, etc etc.

Didn't know it wasn't used like that in Italy.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#316

Post by dvdkon »

londons_explore wrote: post #134
Freak_NL wrote: post #47

It's scary, because CSAM (child sexual abuse material) is very, very broad, and quite vague in its definition¹. My three year old son stayed with my parents for a week, and he was being taught to swim in their swimming pool. Of course, I get sent pictures and clips of his progress by a proud grandma, and of course, him being a toddler, he felt swimming trunks to be completely optional (and of course, they are at his…

> I get sent pictures and clips of his progress Those pictures will be seen by you and grandma, but also maybe by employees of whoever you use to backup the pictures, whatever security services have a need to view the images, whichever police forensics department may need to look through your or grandmas phone if it were to be confiscated, etc. Those employees need a good work environment, and can't be expected to lo…

We seem to have very different priorities. You are concerned about the welfare of employees of privacy-violating organisations. I'm concerned about citizens' privacy and say those organisations shouldn't exist.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#317

Post by MiddleEndian »

tluyben2 wrote: post #277
pantalaimon wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is ridiculous. So dense neighborhoods are popular, therefore prices are rising because more people want to live in a dense neighborhood. The solution to that is not "let's build more undesirable neighborhoods so prices are not increasing" but to change zoning regulations so more dense neighborhoods can be build to satisfy demand!

Or are they living there for jobs? That’s what I always hear as excuse for people to live there, not that they like dense neighbourhoods. I am old though so my network and (news/social) reading habits might be different.

I like living in a dense city. I can walk almost everywhere, I don't need a car, there's nice parks, things are open later (although not late enough for my preferences sometimes), there's good variety of restaurants, entertainment, art, food, bars, dancing, sports, clubs for nerds, and so on. The outer walls of my condo are made of concrete, I hear less from my neighbors than when I lived in a house. The jobs situation is/was also convenient, but I now work remotely and still enjoy living in the city.

Of course, I'm sure there are plenty of people who live in a city and don't like it, and also plenty of people who would prefer to live in the city but cannot afford it or their circumstances keep them somewhere more remote.

If my circumstances change so that I do not enjoy it anymore, or if my material needs change, then I'll adapt appropriately, whether it's moving to a different neighborhood, to a beach town, to the mountains, or to the moon.

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#318

Post by stephen_g »

gambiting wrote: post #226
londons_explore wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, with current 'privacy-protecting scanner' designs, the scanner is running on every end users device, and it would be fairly simple for an expert to dump out the list of things being looked for. That in turn makes such a system far less useful to intelligence services and authoritarian regimes. You don't want to tell your target that you're looking for them and which keywords not to use! I wonder if this…

>>and it would be fairly simple for an expert to dump out the list of things being looked for. If you embed a neural net trained to detect "some" kind of images, I would love to know how one could "dump" the list of things the net is looking for. Basically it's not how it works - the neural net is more or less a black box, you can't tell what kind of things it's looking for by just looking at its contents. You give i…

The hashes are something like a 64x64 pixel representation that can apparently be recovered to a small, very blurry but still recognisable image (when the Apple thing blew up there was a researcher who’d done it with a reimplementation of PhotoDNA from the paper).

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#319

Post by peoplefromibiza »

nix23 wrote: post #303
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In English and particularly American English, “the government” is understood to encompass the justice system as well as Congress/parliament That's only because in USA the justice system depend on the elected president and elected representatives of the State. But that's not true in Europe. Law enforcement forces and justice system employees only have to obey to the laws, not to the politicians in power. They can't…

>Law enforcement forces and justice system employees only have to obey to the laws, not to the politicians in power. Frontex want's to have a word with you..... And the Italian coastguard let people drown because it's law?....or maybe because it's a political thing? You cant separate the government and justice system completely.

> Frontex want's to have a word with you.....

Let's hear your thesis here...

> And your Italian coastguard let people drown because it's law?....

They actually don't.

Some politician (a Trump and Putin supporter, BTW!) tried to make them drawn for political gains and was beaten by a German young Captain Woman. [1]

many people in Europe protested against what Salvini was doing. [2] [3] [4]

France officially condemned what was happening.

Because you know, it's not a dictatorship here or a place where the police kills you if you're of the wrong color, the people still oppose to what Politicians and governments try to do.

Please, don't try to teach me how my country works...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carola_Rackete

[2] Paris: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/127BA/production...

[3] Vienna https://taz.de/picture/3536744/624/23312167_Carola_Rackete_S...

[4] Germany https://media.tio.ch/files/domains/tio.ch/images/4bsj/huh5.j...

Re: EU Commission is planning automatic CSAM scanning of private communications

#320

Post by jstummbillig »

car_analogy wrote: post #234
jstummbillig wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we say that privacy rights can absolutely not be touched, we are, among other things, also saying, whatever criminals get best at abusing those increasingly powerful rights (given the relatively growing space covered by encryption and stuff that happens through or over the internet) get to be more criminal and that's just the price we will have to pay for our collective freedom. This insanely childish and irresp…

Increasingly powerful privacy rights? Do you live in opposite world? Surveillance is growing rapidly, police and other entities have orders of magnitude more data on us than they could have dreamed of a few decades ago, but because there remains an extremely narrow category of data they can't collect in bulk (the content of encrypted communication, but not the metadata), you call this growing privacy? And all of this…

The power that the same old rights afford is increasing, because you don't have to leave your house to do some very nefarious stuff and encrypted communication is now a commodity. Any right to privacy meant relatively less in a world where entering a stone building and bringing guns was considered the premiere way to obtain money illegally, because (and I guess it speaks volumes about this whole thread that I feel the need to spell it out) you had to give up a good amount of your privacy by executing anything in that plan. That's often no longer the case.
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