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Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

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Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#311

Post by jonhohle »

newaccount74 wrote: post #271
jonhohle wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the previous six years, it struck me as completely bizarre that there was any pushback for bringing manufacturing or energy production back locally. It doesn’t have to be nationalist, it’s just adding redundancy in case your trading partner realizes they have over powered leverage. No business wants to concede to a vendor that they are irreplaceable. Edit: Likewise, watching Germany dismantle its nuclear infra…

Energy politics in the public discourse was often dominated by environmental concerns, and there wasn't a singular focus on CO2 as we have now. Gas has been a popular choice, because it is a lot cleaner than coal / light oil / wood from a local pollution perspective. It burns cleanly, so switching to gas heating significantly reduces pollution in cities. Nuclear energy is NOT clean, because it has the huge unsolved p…

Nuclear fuel is recyclable. The safe place to put it is back in a reactor. There are political reasons that doesn’t happen, but not technical reasons.

Globally, nuclear has lower deaths per kWh than even wind, and significantly lower than natural gas or oil. From a US centric perspective, nuclear energy is by far the safest by an order of magnitude[0]. Even a catastrophe like Chernobyl resulted in the deaths of fewer people than a single year of oil and gas drilling.

0 - https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2018/01/25/natural-g...

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#312

Post by recuter »

nix23 wrote: post #290
recuter wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your plan is to sit in the dark while the radiation drifts across the imaginary line that is your border? Well, at least you're honest. Here I thought we were concerned about going green and the planet and such. > Is the far right not happy making money? You know Mr Putin could have just stayed on the throne collecting hundreds of billions a year doing nothing. Nord Stream 2 was weeks away from being flipped on, this…

>Your plan is to sit in the dark while the radiation drifts across the imaginary line that is your border? You know how small Switzerland is? One accident and whole Switzerland could be polluted at once. >You know Mr Putin could have just stayed Not sure how that has anything todo with a far right french politician. >Nord Stream 2 was weeks away from being flipped on And would have been probably flipped off, after wh…

> You know how small Switzerland is? One accident and whole Switzerland could be polluted at once.

Well precisely. And Bugey is so close might as well be in Switzerland, heh. Atoms don't know about our imaginary lines.

> And would have been probably flipped off, after what happened.

I'm saying instead of collecting riches he opted to invade. It is a bummer but sometimes people are not rational actors, even in Europe it turns out.

> Not sure how that has anything todo with a far right french politician.

Generally far right movements have an affinity with Russia/Putin. You don't need to believe some unproven (or in some cases proven) theory about them being bankrolled by him.

Le Pen happens to have known ties but you can disregard this completely if you prefer. What I think you would find very interesting and somewhat alarming is the attitudes and political winds currently blowing even in your civilized neighbor France. Ask a French person first hand to lay it out.

It is relevant to your interests, especially now that you depend on them for energy. I know, fortress Switzerland, not used to this, but it is an important lesson to learn right now. Please don't repeat the mistakes of Germans.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#313

Post by throwaway5752 »

blub wrote: post #303
throwaway5752 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be fair: this was a massive, strategic aim of the Russian state. Germany didn't randomly fall into this situation, there has been decades of influence, bribery, and espionage in Germany to develop that dependency. Kids may need to be reminded that Germany has only been reunified for 32 years and Berlin was divided from the USSR controlled East Germany by a physical wall. Russia is is so motivated to expand its…

When you put it like that, one almost has to feel sorry for Germany, bravely fighting influence, bribery and espionage every step of the way only to fall prey in the end to the Russian state which maliciously supplied the German industry with gas. But this is not at all bad for the US, it’s great! Russia is isolated and weakened and the EU is strangulated by yet another wave of refugees and weakened economically, bec…

I think that https://ceres.georgetown.edu/research/student-projects/geopo... is a fair assessment. I would add https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/dec/13/russia.germany, also. It is plainly clear that the current Russian leadership is expansionist in nature, because they are killing thousands of people in a former satellite state to reestablish prior borders.

This is definitely a less than zero-sum environment. Russia would have been better off not invading Ukraine, along with Europe and the US. A peaceful and international law abiding Russia would be a stronger and richer Russia.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#314

Post by flavius29663 »

ericmay wrote: post #301
flavius29663 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thank god Trump didn't succeed in effectively disbanding Nato. Imagine what Europe would look like now if that happened (as Bolton mentioned in cca 2018). This take bothers me, it's a sound bite repeated at nauseam with no backing what so ever. As a Romanian, I kept a close watch on US politics in Eastern Europe. Nothing that Trump did was pointing to disbanding NATO, on the contrary, he increased the US presence i…

Truth is somewhere around here, I'm not sure where exactly: "Senior administration officials told The New York Times that several times over the course of 2018, Mr. Trump privately said he wanted to withdraw from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Current and former officials who support the alliance said they feared Mr. Trump could return to his threat as allied military spending continued to lag behind the goa…

That "tumultuous meeting last summer" was the one from which I shared the youtube video?

That's how it got to the press: Trump is against NATO. When you watch the video you see it's more about the US is being upset that they pay for Europe's security while Germany pumps billions into Russia's gas every year.

He was right. And btw, he was not the first US president to try this (and they all failed).

But to base the whole "Trump wanted out of NATO" on some leaks from unnamed aids, while all his actions and policies were opposed to that, it just shows you want to hate Trump no matter what.

He was in power for 4 years, he didn't do 1 step to remove US from NATO, he made NATO stronger. He deployed more troops and bases in Eastern Europe, and conducted more exercises than ever before.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#315

Post by mrguyorama »

ganzuul wrote: post #306
1over137 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm, the larger dispute is between NATO and Russia. The USA is the head of NATO.

If this insane idea that the sovereign nations of Europe have no agency of their own comes from American "news"-branded edutainment, I dearly suggest you defenestrate your television set. It is clearly rotting minds.

It tends to come from russian propaganda efforts. They have to make this look like they're fighting the US and not a bunch of sovereign, not enemy nations.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#316

Post by Mountain_Skies »

jonhohle wrote: post #244
Barrera wrote: post #225

> Russian gas accounted for 55% of Germany's gas imports in 2021 and 40% of its gas imports in the first quarter of 2022, Reuters reported. The country has pledged to end the use of Russian gas by 2024, the Habeck said in a March 25 press release. Some in this thread have asked how Germany could be so foolish to tie its economic destiny to such a problematic country as Russia. The answer seems to be "one step at a ti…

During the previous six years, it struck me as completely bizarre that there was any pushback for bringing manufacturing or energy production back locally. It doesn’t have to be nationalist, it’s just adding redundancy in case your trading partner realizes they have over powered leverage. No business wants to concede to a vendor that they are irreplaceable. Edit: Likewise, watching Germany dismantle its nuclear infra…

It's difficult to keep those local industries going when international competition can undercut them and WTO membership hampers your ability to compensate for this. Joining the WTO (and several other lesser-known organizations) is simply giving away part of your sovereignty and ability to react to domestic needs in favor of access to cheap goods and services.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#317

Post by Mountain_Skies »

quantum_solanum wrote: post #292
Barrera wrote: post #225

> Russian gas accounted for 55% of Germany's gas imports in 2021 and 40% of its gas imports in the first quarter of 2022, Reuters reported. The country has pledged to end the use of Russian gas by 2024, the Habeck said in a March 25 press release. Some in this thread have asked how Germany could be so foolish to tie its economic destiny to such a problematic country as Russia. The answer seems to be "one step at a ti…

> In exchange the US got cheap goods (and low inflation), and continued supremacy of the dollar in world trade and as a reserve asset. And perhaps most importantly defused the worker radicalism of the 60s/70s by literally moving the means of production out from under them.

And when it started to rise up again just a little bit with Occupy Wall Street, we got identity politics to ensure workers would never have that opportunity ever again.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#318

Post by _3u10 »

ganzuul wrote: post #306
1over137 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm, the larger dispute is between NATO and Russia. The USA is the head of NATO.

If this insane idea that the sovereign nations of Europe have no agency of their own comes from American "news"-branded edutainment, I dearly suggest you defenestrate your television set. It is clearly rotting minds.

For a “sovereign” nation Germany is awfully dependent on Putin for energy and the US for defense.

My position is not that Germany has no agency it’s that it traded away it’s much of its agency to appease the Greens.

These opinions come not from American TV but from my relatives.

Freistaat Bayern uber alles!

Sorry about taking over Europe again, hope you are enjoying the EU dictating your countries economic fortunes.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#319

Post by tazjin »

OrvalWintermute wrote: post #289
laurent92 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t the ITO (International Trade Organization) regulate international contacts with allowed and non allowed sanctions? I think Western states are currently tied to it, they can’t just impose “whatever” sanctions, and if we don’t, it would be legal for Russia to impose sanctions upon us. Currently Russia has no right to sanction us, so anything they do is a further breach of ITO, which further deepens their case.…

I'm concerned about the use of sanctions, and the individual targeting of wealthy individuals as being anathema to the Rule of Law, property rights, and free exchange. The dollar is inflating at the same time the reserve currency status is threatened, and we Americans, via our allies, are appropriating the stuff of foreigners, seizing boats, currency, gold, and property. I think >400B has been seized at this point. H…

Russia is also consistently referring to the asset freeze as the Western countries defaulting on their obligations, which will resonate with countries that are not in the closest circle of the US.
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