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Not everyone should meditate

joshcsimmons.com

311–320 of 335 posts

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our brains often cause us to do things we consider accidents, e.g. fumbling an egg. It's still me that has done it, and I am still responsible to clean up the mess. The fact that I didn't do it 'deliberately' doesn't negate my culpability and responsibility, although it may change its character.

What is certain about accidents is that they are outside of our control. They are not what anyone would call, of our own free will.

I agree. I think where we might differ though is that I think we can be considered responsible for accidents but I think you were arguing that that was a hard position to take.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#312
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my Christian high school in the 90s, one of my teachers told the class that the purpose of meditation was to empty the mind to let the devil in. I think this is more typical of fundamentalist types.

That is not without basis. Many cultures with meditation traditions caution against unsupervised meditation. Interestingly enough the Christian bible describes the devil trying to tempt Jesus during his 40 day meditation retreat (which is what people would call it these days). Coincidence? Maybe. Definitely not saying meditation is a way to connect with the devil. Just saying that it's not as much baloney as you migh…

I'd go one further and point you to western esotericism, where you would likely perform various meditations before summoning goetic entities.

Now, you're not supposed to let yourself get possessed by them, but any Christian should clutch their crucifix that anyone would even be trying to communicate with Solomon's demons (except maybe to tell them to go away).

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#313
post #281
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That resonates on a very deep level, yes. I've worked through most of it already. I'm not sure exactly right now what this refers to as fifth state of consciousness, is it the eight circuit model of consciousness? If so, as of the last dark night of the soul I seem to have reached permanent and stable access to sixth circuit now with glimpses of the seventh circuit, but I don't want to go there right now and proceedi…

>> I'm not sure exactly right now what this refers to as fifth state of consciousness, is it the eight circuit model of consciousness? No, the fifth state here is an interpretation of the Gurdjieff system and the associated Fourth Way. Loosely the fifth state equivalent to enlightenment (satori). The specific quote is from a book by Robert de Ropp called "The Master Game." I haven't looked into Leary's eight circuit…

Well, it is a nice concept to contemplate for sure. I've found utility in all of them to various degrees. I'll have to look into the book you mentioned, thank you.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#314
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my Christian high school in the 90s, one of my teachers told the class that the purpose of meditation was to empty the mind to let the devil in. I think this is more typical of fundamentalist types.

That is not without basis. Many cultures with meditation traditions caution against unsupervised meditation. Interestingly enough the Christian bible describes the devil trying to tempt Jesus during his 40 day meditation retreat (which is what people would call it these days). Coincidence? Maybe. Definitely not saying meditation is a way to connect with the devil. Just saying that it's not as much baloney as you migh…

Some similarity there with the story of Mara tempting the Buddha. Taken symbolically it makes sense. Through that lens I probably experienced "demons". There will always be zealots that take things overly literally.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#315
post #7

Author compares meditation to doing LSD, then states that doing LSD can be helpful but super hurtful to possibly schizophrenic people. Some part of me can't stop thinking that it's nuts to tell people to not sit quietly and try and clear your mind because it might trigger schizophrenia.

A lot of people here seem to be assuming that "meditation" has to be "intense Buddhist practices deliberately designed to destroy your sense of self." Maybe that's the problem? People read about "meditation" and don't realize what they're getting into? I don't get it.

I'm pretty sure that "destroy your sense of self" is an anti-pattern, even in Buddhist practices. The "dark night" arises out of the very fear and despair that your sense of self could somehow be broken or destroyed, but the goal is to realize that your "senses" are all there, and that "awakening" is about giving yourself the choice of abandoning a flawed understanding of what those weird "senses" are all about.

I respect the fact that most people by far will want to stay the f--- away from the "dark night"; it should only be explored by those who have the prereqs and the ethical maturity and wisdom to get past it smoothly. But the idea that the whole thing must be unreservedly bad or "destructive" is just too limiting.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#316

Coincidentally Mingyur Rinpoche just posted a talk about this as well [1]. I think the most important thing is to find a lineage to practice under, with texts that can support that practice. As much as people want to divorce it from it's historical context, meditation is part of a spiritual practice and communities of people have ways of teaching it in particular ways for a reason. No one should just go sit with zero…

>No one should just go sit with zero context and no support. C'mon now. It's not hang-gliding or dropping acid, it's sitting quietly in a room. Not everything in life should be treated as if it's horrendously risky or can't possibly be understood by people exercising common sense. Nor, in my opinion, do the agglomeration of various meditative practices and teachings, no matter how old and "sacred" they may theoretica…

I think maybe we're talking about different things, and it certainly doesn't help that we're trying to translate concepts from sanskrit, pali, apabhraṃśa, abahatta, etc. that don't necessarily have great translations into an English speaking society without much of a tradition in these things.

I absolutely agree that anyone can (and should!) sit quietly in a room and breath. That could probably fall under a category of beginner pranayama or pratyahara. Physical yoga or qi gong practice is also a great thing to undertake as it begins to develop awareness of breath and sensation at this stage.

But I think what a lot of others here are discussing is a meditation practice that has a goal of uncovering deeper layers of consciousness and realizing the nature of mind. Without support that can be quite overwhelming. If it isn't for you, that's wonderful! It definitely was for me.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#317
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strongly disagree. There's more to meditation than just sitting quietly. I'd say it's more analogous to breaking out of a sandboxed VM and gaining read/write access to the underlying OS and kernel. My personal anecdote - I developed a difficult-to-control, anxiety-inducing thought* while dabbling in meditation a couple of years ago. I experienced a week or two worth of extreme anxiety, and had a panic attack. To this…

> an involuntary, difficult-to-control channeling of my focus/perception I'm really curious about this. Say more?

This is a difficult topic for me to articulate, so the below explanation is merely my best effort to express the experience in words.

The perception of my own heartbeat is something that I've always been squeamish about, but for most of my life it was never a problem. It made me a bit uncomfortable during high intensity exercise, but it was easy enough to just ignore.

During meditation, I began to perceive my heartbeat more intensely than ever before, and it became a "center of gravity" that my attention would often "fall into". My attention would gravitate toward intense perception of my heartbeat not only while meditating, but also at other times (while trying to fall asleep, while trying to focus on work, while driving), and paired with my pre-existing squeamishness, this became very uncomfortable. I might go through most of my day normally, but as soon as my mind becomes idle for a bit, or if something triggers me to start thinking about my heart, my mind will uncontrollably gravitate toward perceiving my heartbeat, and I'll struggle to ignore my heartbeat and to focus on other things.

My strategy at the time was to attempt to become more comfortable with my heartbeat through continued meditation. I thought that by deliberately focusing on my heart during meditation rather than trying to ignore it, I could "fight the monster face-to-face", kill off the squeamish feeling, and learn to perceive my heartbeat as a benign sensation.

Unfortunately, I developed a delusion that I might gain the ability to consciously control my heartbeat (analogously to how we can consciously control our breathing when we think about it), and that I'd injure or kill myself because I'm not at all qualified to exercise that kind of control. I convinced myself that this is impossible because the heart uses its own pacemaker, unlike the lungs which are controlled by the nervous system. But this didn't kill the delusion - it just transformed it into a more vague anxiety, centered around the notion that I might be inadvertently abusing whatever regulatory connections exist between my heart and my brain. I think this delusion is really just a transformation of the visceral squeamishness that I originally felt when I began perceiving my heartbeat, into a more cerebral form of "squeamishness". I made the decision to stop meditating a couple years ago, but the delusion still lurks in my subconscious and comes back from time to time.

So to summarize, when it first began, the uncontrollable heartbeat perception paired with the squeamishness/delusion caused a lot of agony for about two weeks. I've gotten significantly better at ignoring my heartbeat and not being so troubled by it, but it's a problem that I haven't been able to completely get over.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> their argument is more nuanced than just thinking meditation is opening up to the dark side Is it? Viewed through that lens, it doesn't seem like there is a lot of nuance.

The point I'm making is I'm not sure they're viewing it through that lens, but rather GP is dismissing the article because the author is Christian and _some_ of them are known to be against meditation. It does not segue that all Christians are against it. GP seems to be the biased one here with a preconceived opinion.

My interpretation is that the author is Christian (he says this) and he is against meditation for reasons commonly given by many Christians to discourage people from meditating

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#319
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an involuntary, difficult-to-control channeling of my focus/perception I'm really curious about this. Say more?

This is a difficult topic for me to articulate, so the below explanation is merely my best effort to express the experience in words. The perception of my own heartbeat is something that I've always been squeamish about, but for most of my life it was never a problem. It made me a bit uncomfortable during high intensity exercise, but it was easy enough to just ignore. During meditation, I began to perceive my heartbe…

I've heard about a similar thing happening to someone on a Goenka Vipassana retreat. The sound from their heartbeat became too overwhelming for them and they had to stop.

Maybe taking refuge in the impermanence of that feeling could help? That the squeamishness is just a state of mind and like all things arises from emptiness (sunyata) and returns to it? But yeah, putting away the practice sounds completely reasonable in this case.

In a Thai tradition I practiced a bit from they'd tell you to not focus your attention and awareness on anything above the heart center at the beginning, to really just keep it at the naval, as these sorts of difficulties with the body aren't uncommon.

Re: Not everyone should meditate

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point I'm making is I'm not sure they're viewing it through that lens, but rather GP is dismissing the article because the author is Christian and _some_ of them are known to be against meditation. It does not segue that all Christians are against it. GP seems to be the biased one here with a preconceived opinion.

My interpretation is that the author is Christian (he says this) and he is against meditation for reasons commonly given by many Christians to discourage people from meditating

> he is against meditation for reasons

Again, this is _your_ interpretation. They only said they're Christian, and you've decided this must be the reason they're against, and their opinion is worthless. You're just colouring their opinion with YOUR preconceptions.

Their opinion matches my experience, and other commenters, and I'm not Christian at all. Why are you taking it so personally? It's an intellectually stimulating topic, you're free to disagree without dismissing the person based on their religion.

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