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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

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Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#311

Post by BoxOfRain »

p1necone wrote: post #52
vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

I'm often confused by this as well, it's always been fairly obvious to me that other animals are sentient just like us (why wouldn't they be, their physiology is similar, they're descended from common ancestors). Modern factory farming doesn't sit well with me, but I still fairly comfortably eat higher welfare (free range, from reputable brands) or self-caught/hunted meat. It bewilders me that someone would eat meat…

>I'm often confused by this as well, it's always been fairly obvious to me that other animals are sentient just like us (why wouldn't they be, their physiology is similar, they're descended from common ancestors).

Exactly, I'm not sure how anyone who's spent any time around animals could come to a different conclusion. I definitely think people who aren't willing to do the slaughtering themselves have no business eating meat too for that matter. My first ever job was on a meat and fish counter and the amount of people who couldn't stomach seeing a fish get gutted or a steak cut off a sirloin joint because 'it looks too much like an animal' was really shocking. I'm a meat-eater myself, but to deny the inherent violence in a carnivorous diet as those people do is just objectively incorrect in my opinion.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#312

Post by BoxOfRain »

david38 wrote: post #121
javajosh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Predators eat their whole life without wondering where it came from or what it implies about the world. It seems like the base state for every living individual, and is the most natural thing in the world. I think this is an important distinction to make, because if you don't make it you end up expressing contempt for those who don't think more widely rather than admiration for those that do.

Operative word being predator. People eat meat and most can’t stand the sight of animals being slaughtered in the method they currently are. Predators also put themselves at risk often, fail often, etc. Factory livestock is very much removed from this.

I think the 'is meat ethical' conversation is a different conversation from 'is the meat industry ethical'. I'd like to think that even if every slaughterhouse in the land closed up shop people would still be nuanced enough to realise that hunting and fishing are in a different league altogether.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#313

Post by parkingrift »

Azek wrote: post #156
rtkaratekid wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard this called the “one bad day” approach. The animals have a good life with only one bad day. In my opinion it’s probably the most ethical way to keep animals if the intent is to slaughter them at some point.

A non-obvious issue here is that often these animals are sent to slaughter around 12-24 months when they can live happily up to 25 years.

It’s not an issue to the animals. They aren’t made aware of their impending death and made to ponder what more of a life they could have lived. From their perspective they are alive and then suddenly, not.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#314

Post by ornornor »

cheese_goddess wrote: post #291
ornornor wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there is. Egg farms grind male chicks alive. They burn off the tip of the hens beak without anesthesia (which we know is high in nerves) so they don’t fight each other in captivity; which they don’t do nearly as much in nature because surprise surprise they’re not as stressed. Hens laying eggs every single day of their lives (because they’re taken away daily) live much much shorter lives and develop physiological…

> Not to mention cheese which need casein to be made and that can’t be obtained without killing cows as it’s the acid in their stomach, basically. Casein is not the acid in animals' stomachs. Caseins are one group of proteins in milk, and the main component of cheese. You're probably thinking of rennet, the enzymes in animals' stomachs that help them digest their milk. Rennet is used to coagulate milk to make cheese,…

My mother tongue isn’t English and I indeed mixed up rennet and casein because they sound completely different in my language.

Natural rennet cheese may be “artisanal” in your corner of the world, it’s 99% of cheese where I live —just in case, 99% might not be totally accurate, it’s an exaggeration to mean “the vast majority”

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#315

Post by adriand »

infectoid wrote: post #266
ogig wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

I'm trying to cut meats out of my diet slowly. All seafood was easy as I was never that into it. Pig meat on the other hand... Bacon, Ham, Pork, etc. I knew that it had to go. So I started with that. Currently I'm an opportunitarian. Chicken is the meat of choice if I can't handle the vegetarian option, otherwise beef. But pig and all seafood is gone from my diet. My hope is that plant-based or cultured meat improves…

Good for you. Keep at it! I became a vegetarian a year ago, at the age of 42, when my eating habits were firmly established. I loved meat and seafood of all kinds, and was the sort of carnivore who was proud of eating the weirdest and bloodiest animal parts available. But at some point I started actually thinking about the animals and the ethics of killing for food, and I couldn’t conscience it any more. Now that you are thinking about it too, I expect your journey will end with you also ceasing to eat meat. Your other option is to tamp down those feelings and ignore what you are feeling is wrong. For good people, that is not easy.

I know you didn’t ask for advice, so apologies in advance, but a really helpful thing is to simply ensure you have plentiful vegetarian food available, so you don’t get too hungry. Eg nuts, seeds, fruit (including dried), plus stuff you can easily use to whip up tasty dishes, like rice you’ve already cooked and can fry with mushrooms or something. At this point the only things I miss are cured meats like ham and salami. But I eat very well every day and in general feel very happy with my choice.

Much respect to you and good luck!

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#316

Post by ornornor »

cheese_goddess wrote: post #301
ornornor wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t make eggs without killing male chicks, shortening hens lives, and killing them off. Free range, organic, local, or factory. The specifics of it may vary depending on the mode of production but not the reality: it enables animal exploitation and suffering.

> You can’t make eggs without killing male chicks, shortening hens lives, and killing them off. Yes, you absolutely can. Hens lay eggs whether there's a rooster around or not. I live in a farm (not mine, I'm a guest) and we get a few eggs each day from the hens in the coop outside my window. We don't kill the male chicks off. I don't think anyone on the farm can even tell which chicks are male befor they grow up. We…

My point of view is that exploiting animals for food is wrong. No brand of “ethical” farming can change that fact for me. Raising animals to kill them for food before the end of their natural life is something I refuse to partake in.

Male chicks aren’t ground at birth in your farm, that’s better in my book. But they’re still raised to be eaten. I’d still argue that hens laying eggs every day shortens their lifespan because it puts strain on their system. As far as I know, hens don’t naturally lay eggs every day, all year. They lay an egg and keep it around for a while to see if it’s growing or not. After a while they eat it and start over. They also don’t produce eggs all year but only part of it. But because farm hens are there for their eggs and later their meat, we take their egg every day and they have to lay another the next day. Some farms also use lights and heaters to trick the hens into thinking the season never ends and have then lay all year long.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#317

Post by ornornor »

marliechiller wrote: post #310
cheese_goddess wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not to mention cheese which need casein to be made and that can’t be obtained without killing cows as it’s the acid in their stomach, basically. Casein is not the acid in animals' stomachs. Caseins are one group of proteins in milk, and the main component of cheese. You're probably thinking of rennet, the enzymes in animals' stomachs that help them digest their milk. Rennet is used to coagulate milk to make cheese,…

im sorry, but you cant dismiss the rest of his valid points purely because he got 1 out of many incorrect. I detect a hint of bias might be present on your side from your username also...

Thank you

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#318

Post by throwaway98797 »

dayglo wrote: post #264
hackernewds wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What logic makes plants better to kill than cows, better than octopi, better than cats? because vegans might the argument uncomfortable doesn't render it invalid either

If I gave you a live chicken, a head of broccoli, what would happen when you tried to cut up each one with a carving knife? You instinctively know what fear and pain are, and minimising those things is the point of veganism. If plants feel their fear and pain far slower, then much less of it is happening.

if I starve you for a week, what would you do then?

ethics are always the privilege of the well to do

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#319

Post by adrian_b »

tengbretson wrote: post #173
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We will look back with astonishment at the sheer madness of killing animals and eating them.

Doesn't it make you want to go back in time to the moment that humans invented the concept of eating animal flesh and putting a stop to it?

As another poster has already said, becoming predators was an absolutely necessary stage for humans to become as intelligent as they are now, so we cannot regret it or wish that it has not happened.

Even many of the people who abhor the most to see the death of other animals cannot abstain to admire the beauty of the actions of top predators like tigers/jaguars or octopuses.

Nevertheless, now we are approaching quickly the moment when killing other animals in order to use their body for food or for producing various useful substances is no longer needed, so we should stop this as soon as it becomes possible.

Unfortunately we still need some technological developments for this to become feasible everywhere.

I would like to be completely vegan, but for now there still exist 2 food ingredients of animal origin that I consume, because any equivalent vegan alternatives for them are much more expensive than I can afford.

However, the bulk of the food, which provides most of the energy, can already be restricted to non-animal origins, for everyone, everywhere.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#320

Post by shanusmagnus »

kuhewa wrote: post #293
meerita wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying you're ok eating dumber animals and leave the intelligent ones alive. Interesting…

Yeah, I don't totally get equating greater intelligence with greater capacity to suffer.

Greater intelligence allows greater introspection, prediction, rumination; allows one to build a model of self and environment not possible at lower intelligence. The suffering that is possible when you can anticipate your death, or imagine a hopeless future, turns otherwise neutral situations into hells.
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