More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years • Hacker News Board

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#311

Post by MikeTheRocker » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:53 PM UTC

DebtDeflation wrote: post #233

HWR_14 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just loans, it's COVID. If I were college-age and I were planning on going to college I would certainly do one of two things. I would postpone college until the COVID issues died down -or- I would use the fewer applicants to get into a more prestigious school banking on a better 3 year experience (out of 4) starting in the fall of 2022 and more impressive degree going forward. Either way, I can imagine admit…

Tend to agree. I did my Masters degree (pre-Covid) as part of a predominantly online program at a large university. It worked out well, but I cannot even begin to imagine doing an undergraduate program remotely and missing out on the campus experience. There's much more to "going off to college" than taking classes, and I fully understand why 18-22 year olds would not want to shell out tens of thousands of dollars to…

I'm currently about 2/3 through an online Master's degree: Georgia Tech OMSCS. Same as you?

For me it's been a drastically different experience compared to my in-person undergrad. Whereas my Bachelor's degree was full of camaraderie and formative life experiences, my Master's has been more or less bereft of social or personal growth and focused entirely on course material. This is okay for me since my primary goal is to develop a deeper technical background, but I would not recommend such an experience for your average 18 year old kid who is about to start their first university experience.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#312

Post by vgeek » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:53 PM UTC

connorgreenwell wrote: post #183

VikingCoder wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what I don't get - Where the hell is the money _going_? Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building rockets? I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes to football coaches... But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just can't visualize where it's going.

Armies of administrators, shiny new amenities to attract more students (competing on quality of education is too difficult / more expensive). There's probably some good that it goes towards too, but its hard not to be cynical about it.

I was a one of two developers at a small relatively unknown private college (costs over $70k and wasn't even top 5 in this state) in a communications (see: marketing B team for admissions, mostly PR and crisis response) department of around 15. I cannot emphasize how inept and slow everyone was. Simple tasks took 10x longer than they should. There were 3-4 people dedicated solely to managing contractors for the bi-annual magazine that likely gets tossed by 90% of the recipients, then people whose sole job was to manage an ad agency in a committee with at least 4 other people. They were in the 6 month process of launching a 5 page WP site for the newly funded careers institute that had ~15 employees to try and help graduates find jobs paying more than $15/hr with their newly minted liberal arts degrees when I finally left. Their solution for making soon/new graduates more employable? Linkedin courses for specific skills like digital marketing, Excel and microcertificates through external resources.

Then there are other leaks, like $50k/yr hosting bills for a CMS serving under 200k pageviews per day, or other ancillary a11y compliance tools that cost nearly as much. If there is budget, it has to be spent.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#313

Post by cryptolake » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:53 PM UTC

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #276

awb wrote: post #147

I’ve been recruiting for US startups since 2008, probably recruited over 100 folks from engineers to C-level. I have never considered a candidate’s college or if they even attended one. The only thing I evaluated is what they accomplished in the last 1-2 years. That meant hiring some brilliant engineers straight out of high school. Most of these candidates were early stage hires for dozens of companies that went on t…

My ideal college would be 2 years of straight up technical computer science/math, followed by straight going into the industry. If you want to learn theory in depth, that is what grad school should be for.

That's exactly what I'm studying right now at holberton school in tunisia, it's project based and we dive into the fundamentals pretty well for a year and then choose a specialization in the other year, it's pretty good so far.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#314

Post by indymike » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

There are three problems that colleges need to fix.

1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes.

2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a six month digital marketing bootcamp. She made $45k year one, and a year later is the director of marketing at her company making over $100k/yr.

3) College is way over priced. They claim graduates make 40% over their lifetime vs. non grads. JP Morgan Chase did a study two years ago that shows kids that had a job, any job before age 18 make 35% more than their peers over their lifetime regardless of degree.

4) Student loans are a horror that needs to stop. Young people should not be put in debt-bondage. Imagine America's financial health if we let young people start families and careers debt free.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#315

Post by throwaway5752 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #186

throwaway5752 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That completely shifts the blame to bureaucracies, and that isn't fair. Loans are where they are because students prefer newer dorms, amenities, programs, and research opportunities. Student competition leads to prestige, leads to demand from employers for graduates from a specific institution. It is a self-reinforcing dynamic. The fact student loads have special bankruptcy treatment is bad. But absent Sallie Mae (or…

Students don't usually get a choice of dorm, it's often a lottery program. Research is usually grant funded.

Students tour campuses and look at facilities, including dorms, and that factors into their decisions.

Research may be funded. But research salaries are high as are facility costs and upkeep. There are numerous costs to support a top tier research program and maintain it that are not covered by grants.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#316

Post by lumost » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #211

yxwvut wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the only tenable solutions are 1) a ceiling on the loan amount tethered to public college costs to increase price elasticity and prevent runaway costs, along with a quota on loans to address the 'future ability to repay' issue with many majors/low caliber schools 2) free public college (or equivalent private college voucher) Giving out loans with no cap on how much schools can charge and with no ability-to-re…

Option 2 is the only tenable solution. Option 1 is just more of the same we have now. Either society puts their money where their mouth is and actually pays for people to be educated, or they can choose to keep taxes lower and let people fend for themselves. Either of these options is fine, but the bullshit blank check taxpayer funded loans non dischargeable in bankruptcy is only good for politicians and taxpayers to…

The pertinent question of where the money goes needs an answer. Afaict universities are simply spending money on more things because they can or taking on debt to drive prestige projects.

We know college can be cheaper, Brigham young goes for 5k/yr, European and Canadian schools still charge less than 10k/yr.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#317

Post by chaosbolt » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #249

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #108

This is nearly a strictly American problem. Much of the rest of the world has realized that society requires and is capable of supporting advanced education for all -- after all we want humanity to be advancing , right? America is still stuck in this alternate universe where it's a great privilege to have the opportunity to learn, which is of course true to some extent, but they really put it on a pedestal there. Com…

This is nearly a strictly American problem. Much of the rest of the world has realized that society requires and is capable of supporting advanced education for all -- after all we want humanity to be advancing, right? I think foreign colleges have stricter entry requirements and fewer amenities compared to American colleges. So yes, college may be free in Japan, but also much harder to be accepted.

>I think foreign colleges have stricter entry requirements and fewer amenities compared to American colleges. So yes, college may be free in Japan, but also much harder to be accepted.

Yeah this is problematic, on one hand you have people who work harder for it pass the entrance exams and get in (like in France for example where some engineering schools like Polytechnique and ENS have a super difficult entrance exam but then you know everyone studying there earned it), but on the other hand you get some people who are just lazy or not good at physics get filtered from top tier positions in CS because the entrance exam had Math and Physics equally attribute to your grade.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#318

Post by giaour » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #288

thehappypm wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A $50,000 loan with a high interest rate is not good AT ALL.

By that logic there should be much more outrage about credit card debt, car loan debt.

Unlike student loans, those debts can be discharged in bankruptcy.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#319

Post by samarama » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

issa wrote: post #155

samarama wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are student loans really such an issue? 85% of graduates have less than $50,000 in student loans. Paid off over 20 years, that’s really not much. https://www.rclco.com/wp-content/uploads/advisory-student-de... Additionally, those that have much higher loans are usually medical students who make $200,000/year at the entry level.

If you are in the US and know people who are aged 30-50 and not software engineers, this is almost all that they talk about. Some people manage to pay them off, others (due to high interest) owe more than when they started. It is a huge problem.

Do you have sources for this, because the numbers don’t reflect this.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#320

Post by throwaway5752 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

malfist wrote: post #205

throwaway5752 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That completely shifts the blame to bureaucracies, and that isn't fair. Loans are where they are because students prefer newer dorms, amenities, programs, and research opportunities. Student competition leads to prestige, leads to demand from employers for graduates from a specific institution. It is a self-reinforcing dynamic. The fact student loads have special bankruptcy treatment is bad. But absent Sallie Mae (or…

It's a little rich to blame 18 year olds for college costs skyrocketing don't you think? Of course students prefer newer dorms, amenities, programs and research opportunities. But asking someone who might have been getting $5/week allowance to figure out how much a newer dorm is worth when the prices are in the 10s of thousands is an impossible task. They don't know how much money is worth. And then to tell them that…

The demand for top tier education drives prices, just like the financing structure for loans for that education drives prices. Excluding one or the other is a false choice. Maybe if risk of default were factored into loans that would change the trajectory of the tuition cost curve. But taking away agency the consumers in the model doesn't lead us to the insights we need to actually fix the underlying problem.

I have a vested interest in this problem. But saying popular things for upvotes isn't going to change the underlying problem of how to allocate scarce resources.

I disagree with you on "teenagers don't understand fiscal policy, and shouldn't be expected too.". This isn't fiscal policy. This is a pretty straightforward introduction to being an adult and budgeting. I went through it, too. A mortagage was harder and more daunting. Rental terms on apartments were more predatory. The fact that people even discuss bankruptcy to discharge student loan debt is a horrible sign, given how much of ones' life potential one i throwing away to recover prime loan eligibility.

Also, "And then to tell them that they can't discharge it in bankrupcy because they knew what they were getting into is very much bullshit." - what part of where I wrote, "The fact student loads have special bankruptcy treatment is bad" is unclear?