I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months • Hacker News Board

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#311

Post by laluser » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:45 PM UTC

lloydatkinson wrote: post #5

erehweb wrote: post #2

"It blew my mind how many business critical processes were managed with excel spreadsheets being shared via email chains." - this also blows my mind, given how many problems there are with Excel (e.g. formatting).

And also considering how much in house software development there is...

Yes, but you can't realistically create a web app for every spreadsheet that is out there. Only when it would truly add value to the team over the long-term, does it make sense. In my experience, this is done when the spreadsheet stops scaling to the number of people that need access to the data or systems that need said data.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#312

Post by garbagecoder » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:46 PM UTC

_moof wrote: post #148

dudus wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect your view and while that may be true on a lot of cases that's not what the company represents a pip to be. A PIP is a situation where you are told you are not performing at the desired level and needs to improve. In a respectable company being on a pip can be good for you. In my personal case I was not performing well due to personal issues. Getting on a pip saved my job. It gave me the resources and attent…

I've put people on PIPs. I genuinely wanted them to do better. They did. Like you said, they are a tool for laser-focusing attention on specific, well-defined issues. There is no actual ass-covering need to put someone on a PIP. If a company in the U.S. wants to fire you, they generally don't need a reason. Individual company cultures will, of course, vary. There are a lot of shitty managers out there.

> they generally don't need a reason.

This is true as far as it goes, but exceptions to the at-will rule include Title VII claims, so if they have an illusion of a dream of a identity-based claim, you need some documentation.

Since most companies don’t want to pay even the minuscule amount required to get a valid release, this is the alternative.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#313

Post by ubermonkey » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:46 PM UTC

ryanianian wrote: post #66

> The churn I experienced was significant One thing I don't see mentioned enough is the forced PIP policy. Basically every manager is forced to stack-rank their entire team, and the bottom N percent is put on a PIP. So even if your entire team is comprised of very top-notch engineers you will see forced attrition. It also disincentivizes helping team-members in deep ways and incentivizes back-stabbing politics. Of co…

Wow, I thought the horror stories out of MSFT had put an end to stack-ranking forced-PIP evaluations. It seems incredibly counter productive, and leads to things like hire-to-fire that are just indefensible.

Having a team where everyone is excelling is a GOOD thing in most orgs, right?

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#314

Post by lostcolony » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:47 PM UTC

_moof wrote: post #263

ballenf wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a company in the U.S. wants to fire you, they generally don't need a reason. That's only true if they can prove the reason isn't one of several prohibited reasons (racism, sexism, ageism, etc.). And how do you do that? Have a PIP system in place in which the acceptable reason is documented in detail and all employees are treated consistently. That's why PIPs are effectively termination at many companies. Even if…

> That's only true if they can prove the reason isn't one of several prohibited reasons (racism, sexism, ageism, etc.). They don't need to prove anything. In employment discrimination cases the burden of proof is on the plaintiff.

It's still a risk. An assertion of discrimination, even without evidence, is going to be a painful court case. After all, "Soandso said he didn't like X people, and then fired me" is impossible to prove or disprove, but it sure can rack up some court time and lawyer fees, with the possibility of a loss in the event of an unsympathetic jury.

But a documented process, that was followed, that set defined goals, and recorded failures, is going to be a much faster and more sure trial.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#315

Post by garbagecoder » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:48 PM UTC

_moof wrote: post #263

ballenf wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a company in the U.S. wants to fire you, they generally don't need a reason. That's only true if they can prove the reason isn't one of several prohibited reasons (racism, sexism, ageism, etc.). And how do you do that? Have a PIP system in place in which the acceptable reason is documented in detail and all employees are treated consistently. That's why PIPs are effectively termination at many companies. Even if…

> That's only true if they can prove the reason isn't one of several prohibited reasons (racism, sexism, ageism, etc.). They don't need to prove anything. In employment discrimination cases the burden of proof is on the plaintiff.

Wrong. Google “Title VII burden shifting framework.” It will cost you tens of thousands to get a frivolous case dismissed. In wage/hour cases, the burden is almost entirely shifted to the employer.

Also with respect to the attorney fee provisions, in California they are almost entirely one way in practice even the ones that are loser pays in reality.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#316

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:50 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #274

jonny_eh wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if they couldn't sharpen a knife? Would you still trust them to cook a 5 course dinner?

Sure. Just like I trust race car drivers to drive even though they don't know how to fix the car. As long as they understand the basics of how the car parts interact, they'll be just fine driving it.

[deleted]

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#317

Post by Elof » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:51 PM UTC

Elof wrote: post #271

endymi0n wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You might as well test a French Cuisine Chef on how well his Chinese cooking is. A way more apt comparison would be evaluating him on his knive sharpening skills.

As someone who has worked in professional kitchens, I can say that any professional chef that isn't comfortable sharpening their own knives isn't there because they love cooking. All of the ones I know take great pride in their knives.

I think a more apt comparison would be to tell a classically trained English speaking chef to write out obscure recipes in French

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#318

Post by davidsawyer » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:51 PM UTC

telotortium wrote: post #182

mynameisash wrote: post #38

I also left Amazon after ~10mo. I've written about this elsewhere, but the short version is: * New manager who was a nice guy but didn't help me or other folks onboard * A skip-level (who I expected would be my direct) manager who was about as hands-off as could be and seemed interested in building his own empire. * SDE3 who was nominally my mentor but was less than useless. I asked him to whiteboard our services, an…

What's the company across the lake - Microsoft?

Almost surely

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#319

Post by garbagecoder » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:51 PM UTC

prirun wrote: post #173

kahrl wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Performance Improvement Plan: "We're trying to fire you but need to do it by the books as to mitigate liability."

I don't understand why people keep saying this. Every state except Montana in the US is "at will": the employer can fire you at any time with no reason. I suppose you could try to prove discrimination because of age or something else, but just like you can walk out and never come back, the employer can ask you to leave and you're done. Companies have no liability if you are fired other than a discrimination lawsuit.…

Because that’s true. You think it’s free to get even a frivolous case dismissed under discrimination or wage/hour laws? Lol. Google “title VII burden shifting framework.” For companies in SV, i.e. under CA law, it’s easily tens of thousands to dismiss even a frivolous case.

Better documentation means only increasingly bottom feeding plaintiffs lawyers will take the case.

Re: I took a job at Amazon, only to leave after 10 months

#320

Post by deltaonefour » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:51 PM UTC

pkaye wrote: post #215

deltaonefour wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually don't have this problem. A lot of things programmers get hung up on is just OCD stuff that don't actually improve anything. I once named a function findGreatestCommonDenominatorGCDOfFraction(numerator: int, denominator: int) -> int and one programmer wanted me to rename it into GCD(x, y) because it was more elegant. While GCD feels more elegant it's actually less clear and less practical. The length and ve…

Why do you have GreatestCommonDenominator and GCD in that function name?

Search. But even without search does having GCD in the name matter? No. It literally does not harm the program or understanding of the program in any way.

Even so, the majority of programmers will have a tendency to react to this as emotionally wrong. Then they attempt to rationalize this explanation with some form of reasoning. Try to catch this in yourself as it could be happening Right now as you read this.

You feel it's wrong but not from the composition of logical explanations. The feeling of wrongness forms first than you try to search for facts to rationalize your feeling.

Let me be clear. There is nothing logically harmful with that name but most programmers feel there is. This type of OCD tendency accounts for about 50% requests in code reviews. Ultimately useless changes to satisfy some OCD tendency.