Earlier quoted context omitted.
What are the economic benefits of low gravity? If so, would the moon be more economically valuable than Mars? I’m genuinely curious about the economics of doing more in space than putting up satellites.
1/6th of Earth gravity is even better. Short term: a wonderful tourist attraction. You can nearly fly. Long term: people with muscular / bone disabilities who cannot withstand Earth gravity. An interesting retiring home (for a narrow wealthy set, of course).
Starship is still not understood
311–320 of 364 posts
Re: Starship is still not understood
#312Earlier quoted context omitted.
> SpaceX is likely going to need to construct hundreds of Starships to maintain anywhere close to the promised cadence of launches. That's always been the plan. Even in the original 2016 presentation featuring the considerably larger Interplanetary Transport System that got scaled down to become what's now known as Starship and Superheavy, the plan was to churn them out en masse to make it possible to make the most o…
Producing a bunch of units is a small part of the system cost. Starships will need to be inspected and refurbished between flights (high personnel cost). Launch sites need infrastructure to support that launch cadence as well. That means clean room storage, fuel production/storage, housing, and adequate roads/rail/ports for surface transport. Launches also have regulatory requirements like clearing of airspace and po…
But that doesn't matter. Even without any Starship re-usability (aside from Superheavy), you still come out far, far ahead of any conceivable evolution of SLS.
Re: Starship is still not understood
#313Spacex is building the transcontinental railroads of the solar system. There is mind boggling upside for them. I'm kinda disappointed Blue Origin seems to have fallen in a rut. I'm sure Musk will be happy to provide transportation for Bezos space colony construction projects! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Tycoon Edit My point isn't to disparage Bezos, but to highlight the fact that anyone with grand aspirati…
Can we just build private space, lunar, and martian colonies? They could be financed by Tesla shareholders. The colonisation of the world by Europeans started with government investment, but eventually became self-sustaining. If these offworld colonies are free of political correctness, crime, taxes, welfare systems, and disease, and contain only beautiful, healthy, and intelligent people (via careful selection, incl…
The GULag system was just one collection of data points. The nuclear weapons reservations, space launch complexes, and bio-weapons towns were others.
The experience was not, on average, considered inspirational.
Re: Starship is still not understood
#314Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Way too many people seem to ignore the cost of developing and certifying scientific instruments. It gets ignored because it is a symptom of not being able to cheaply launch probes. You spend all of this time researching and developing a scientific instrument only to make two of them. One to launch the other to go on a diagnostic model (maybe a third for a launch backup). You spread out the cost of development over…
> It gets ignored because it is a symptom of not being able to cheaply launch probes. Is it, though? Let's do a quick and very superficial analysis of the costs here. Say we want to send a probe the outer solar system, like the moons of Jupiter or the Saturn system. There are two unique challenges that such probes are faced with: • on Jupiter, the magnetic field of the planet requires hardened electronics and shieldi…
An industry delivering strontium-90 on demand could be very valuable for space operations, despite or even because of its uselessness as weapon material.
Re: Starship is still not understood
#315Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Even with economies of scale producing various components for the hundred JWSTs those all need to be tested and verified. That's an expensive process that doesn't really benefit from economies of scale. My point is that all those processes are expensive because the final result has to work the first time, because launches are expensive and infrequent. Drop launch costs enough, you don't need so much reliability, so…
Launch costs are not the only (maybe not even the most) important factor for reliability. If your probe takes 9 years to reach it's destination and then fails to deploy it's not the launch costs that are the problem. Or if you want to land an unmanned cargo ship near your lunar or mars base reliability is defiantly a concern. Cheap launch costs are definitely in important step to colonizing the system we are simply p…
Re: Starship is still not understood
#316I think it was SN11 that stuck the landing. I was there.
SN10 landed on it's engines as the legs didn't deploy, and exploded on the pad a few minutes afterwards. SN11 exploded in mid-air in the fog [1]. SN15 landed correctly for the first time and didn't explode afterwards. [1]: https://youtu.be/cN7855POvJ8?t=172
Re: Starship is still not understood
#317But in 2045 it would be unimaginable to design new rocket not taking in account starship. Starship itself will be on it's 10-th iteration. Everyone: EU, China, Japan will have starship-inspired space launch vehicles. In-orbit refuelling will be finally figured out.
That is when slow progress will change thing forever. Not Artemis program, not today.
Re: Starship is still not understood
#318Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The author's claim that the potential benefits of Starship are not understood by NASA is cringeworthy naive. > Makes me wonder how old the author is. The author works for JPL. > Starship is still extremely unproven. If you look at the history of rockets, mayyyybe 1 in 5 that make it to an orbital launch debut (which is like 1 in 50 paper rockets) in turn make it to commercial rollout. How many of these had 10+ prot…
Jeez dude, these were just random programs off the top of my head to illustrate industry distrust of launch vehicle promises. My comment wasn't meant to initiate a debate but offer the perspective of someone who is quite literally writing proposals about launch vehicle selection for NASA missions. But hey, you can read Wikipedia, so... In any case to those reasonable out there, don't worry. If SpaceX can prove reliab…
What you are insinuating is that people are unable to difference between a suborbital technology demonstrator and powerpoint vehicles and multi-billion $ projects that are deep in development.
And non of the projects you mentioned would have a comparable impact to Starship. Maybe VentureStar but that was at best decades away.
You can just throw out some random projects and use them to justify non-action.
If VentureStar had actually seriously gone forward the same kind of almost the rethinking would have been necessary. And even if it in the end didn't happen, it would have been valuable to do.
> perspective of someone who is quite literally writing proposals about launch vehicle selection for NASA missions. But hey, you can read Wikipedia, so...
So making bad arguments can be justified from authority. Good to know.
> It's kind of silly to write articles about how everyone should change the way they operate NOW because change is coming.
There are many years of lead time, choices are only gone go into actual products and missions year from now.
Now is exactly the right time to start planning and rethinking approaches.
When Commercial Cargo was made, much of the need private industry didn't exist. And yet they did it, because they were locking forward and adjusted their operations.
Back then there was massive critic of NASA even from win NASA itself that this was a bad idea and it was never gone work. And that is what kick started the New Space movement.
That kind of thinking is what is needed. Plan projects now and get them rolling that could take advantage of the capabilities in a few years.
> What more do the fanboys want!?
Putting yourself as the reasonable authority and then ranting about 'fanboys' makes you look silly.
The auther of the article works for JPL, but I guess he is a 'fanboy'.
Re: Starship is still not understood
#319Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The author's claim that the potential benefits of Starship are not understood by NASA is cringeworthy naive. > Makes me wonder how old the author is. The author works for JPL. > Starship is still extremely unproven. If you look at the history of rockets, mayyyybe 1 in 5 that make it to an orbital launch debut (which is like 1 in 50 paper rockets) in turn make it to commercial rollout. How many of these had 10+ prot…
> Ares, SLS are basically just warmed up shuttle concepts Not really. They were started before SpaceX proved the idea of reusable boosters. They are a safe Plan-B, using engines and concepts that were already available. It’s a shame they decided to improve upon the existing hardware and took much longer than initially expected, but that’s what life with rockets used to be before SpaceX showed rapid iteration is a bet…
I was the Plan-A back then during Constellation. And SLS was also Plan-A.
> Not really.
I would argue the forced existing hardware into those project to continue to employ the same contractors.
Using a single stick solid rocket booster for your human launcher might be one of the worst ideas in the last 2 decades of rocket history.
Not surprisingly the congress person from that state was heavily involved funding Constellation.
> It’s a shame they decided to improve upon the existing hardware and took much longer than initially expected, but that’s what life with rockets used to be before SpaceX showed rapid iteration is a better path.
There were other viable paths even back then. Not to the level of SpaceX but there were others.
NASA did a whole bunch of studies and these studies pretty much universally showed that the current SLS designs was flawed and a booster that looked like a modern Saturn V was the far better solution.
There were even considerations of having it be privately developed.
Turns out NASA can make as many studies as they want, congress basically over-ruled them and forced them to use all the existing contractors and facilities and thus they were forced into current SLS.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceLaunchSystem/comments/kt1vlf/r...
Re: Starship is still not understood
#320Earlier quoted context omitted.
Great so nobody ever researches anything and we still all live in the stone age. But at least we are pure in our hearts that we didn't mis-allocate resources when people were starving. That this mindset exists blows my mind. > Like, if you can't fix war at the level of horses, bayonets and canons, maybe not go for inventing aircrafts and tanks and machine guns just yet Aside from the practical, problem of "Great way…
> Great so nobody ever researches anything and we still all live in the stone age. Sounds far more climate friendly. Also moving out of stone age only once we've stopped with hunger and war? Sign me in! > The underlying philosophy is equally flawed. Its like picking out of the technology bucket only things you don't like. God forbid we're picky with the tecnologies we adopt!
> Sign me in!
Then we would still be in the stone age.
> God forbid we're picky with the tecnologies we adopt!
Be picky all you want. As we progressed certain things simple became viable and just ignoring the problem doesn't make them vanish.