The latest campus cancellation is different • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#311

Post by kodah » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

The problem is that some amount of people think this is activism. I call it amateur activism. As long as people find this to be an acceptable form of activism it will still go on, and anyone you hold accountable within the mob for their actions will be considered a martyr.

I'm a veteran, there's a ton of outrageous posts I can make on social media that might gain traction. The fact is, those kind of actions don't really fuel any kind of partnership between me and people on the other side of what I perceive as a problem. It does fuel fear though, fear in administrators and representatives that they could be unhirable in a capitalist economy where your desirability as a worker is tantamount to your existence. I don't really desire a paradigm where I'm threatening someones life for my own desires and happiness. So, instead, I pay professional activists to help by being part of the discussions I don't want to have with people, and more importantly remove potentially tenuous discussions and convincing I'd have to do of regular people who don't understand the veteran world or experience. They're called lobbyists.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#312

Post by h2odragon » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

whitexn--g28h wrote: post #229

h2odragon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think there's any real, individual, independant doubt about vaccines, global warming, or political causes? Just "everybody you disagree with"? or is your side also controlled by conspiracies of the elites dictating the opinions of their followers?

At this point over 200 million Americans have been vaccinated. 700k people have died of COVID-19. In the US there is no independent individual who could come to a conclusion other than it is safer to get vaccinated than to get COVID-19. I’m not sure who is spreading the anti-vax nonsense, but at this point it seems like more of a Darwin Award than a conspiracy by the elite.

Those that have had COVID may legitimately feel they have less need for the vaccine. Some of us have other medical reasons not to take one. Or might just be ornery.

No matter how convinced you are that "no independent individual" disagrees with you; it still happens.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#313

Post by dfdz » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #188

dfdz wrote: post #144

> John Carlson Lecture As a disclaimer I am against any censorship of academia and think that even Charles Murray should be allowed to speak at a university (assuming he is invited by an academic department or student group) and that the university should never have veto power. However, I think the example in the Atlantic is actually more mild than past cases: the John Carlson Lecture is a general audience talk that…

The article argues, and I agree, that a university is free to not invite someone if they view them as controversial. Where the problem really is is that they invited him and then retracted the invitation in response to a mob. The retraction is what makes this problematic. EDIT: the other point that the article makes is that this professor's "controversial" views are held by upwards of 70% of the American public. The…

I think that every retraction of an invitation to speak in response to a mob is bad, so we are in agreement.

My only point is that this particular "John Carlson Lecture" is itself a public relations event whose purpose is to promote MIT to the local public and enhance its image, they allude to this in the official statement [1].

In my opinion, a PR lecture cancellation is different from telling a student group or department that they are not allow to invite a specific speaker: it is bad, but much less dangerous to academic discourse than previous cancellations (even if in past examples the speakers mentioned in the article had extreme or bizarre views).

[1] https://orgchart.mit.edu/node/6/letters_to_community/importa...

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#314

Post by analog31 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

Amusingly, graduates of "elite" universities are the brainpower behind social media and its satellite industries. In turn, those industries are a driving behind the market value of an MIT degree. I sense a symbiosis.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#315

Post by DangitBobby » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #131

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

Just don't read it - be the better person and just rise above it. These opinions are not new - they existed before Twitter was a thing. Just now the opinions have a platform that amplifies their visibility. As the quote goes, the only winning move is not to play.

I already don't read Twitter, and yet the MIT admins "buckled." It looks like not reading it doesn't actually accomplish much real world change.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#316

Post by bluescrn » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

throwaway984393 wrote: post #270

Actually it's not different. University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic, usually due to political beliefs or corporate interests that clashed with students' ideals. "Cancel culture" is specifically about "personal" societal reforms, which is what makes it different than the older complaints about general politics. Back in the day it was "edgy" to protest or…

Social media has completely transformed this type of protest. People who have nothing to do with the university can now join a 'cancel mob' to attack a political opponent on the other side of the world.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#317

Post by peterangular » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

mawise wrote: post #118

Seems like there were two things Abbot did "wrong", one was to argue against affirmative action, and the other was to use a nazi reference to make his point. Does anyone have first-hand knowledge of what the mob said on Twitter? I'm curious if they differentiated between the two. For anyone who hasn't seen it, Netflix's fiction THE CHAIR satires cancel culture in liberal institutions and their story includes someone…

> Seems like there were two things Abbot did "wrong", one was to argue against affirmative action, and the other was to use a nazi reference to make his point.

Which in the current political climate is a horrible look for the school. I get why they dropped him - for better or worse lots of people are fed up with the promise of an ideal meritocracy... especially younger folks. And, for better or worse, those younger folks heavily coordinate their dissatisfaction in the most effective place to get their voice heard by institutions: the internet.

Wrong or not... in the current climate I would not be making arguments against affirmative action publicly while expecting to keep my academic speaking arrangements. Especially with Nazi Germany comments thrown in there - way too spicy. I guarantee MIT will find a fine replacement that has less controversy in their recent history, and allowing this guy to talk would have only been risking further public altercation with their students. I would have made the same business decision.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#318

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #289

throwaway984393 wrote: post #270

Actually it's not different. University lecturers have been protested or cancelled for decades for reasons unrelated to their topic, usually due to political beliefs or corporate interests that clashed with students' ideals. "Cancel culture" is specifically about "personal" societal reforms, which is what makes it different than the older complaints about general politics. Back in the day it was "edgy" to protest or…

I get the historical analogy with anti-Vietnam War protesters. I just don't agree that they are actually the moral equivalent of anti-anti-racial-preference protesters. And I definitely don't believe that the majority will see it that way in a few decades. The moral foundations for Vietnam War opposition are much intellectually deeper and ideologically broader than those supporting racial preferences. A medieval Cath…

[deleted]

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#319

Post by still_grokking » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

It would be simple if you would just shadow-ban those mobs.

Then they can go to implode inside their own bubble. Nobody would get hurt.

Giving those people a broad stage and all that publicity gives those mobs power in the first place.

The problem is: Services like Twitter literary make money on any drama those mobs produce.

As long as it's profitable to gather attention of the masses with whatever shit gets thrown at the fan there will be an incentive to give those mobs a big stage.

Let's face it: The incentive to be a drama multiplier needs to disappear. As this won't happen in a natural way regulatory steps need to be taken. The whole business model of FB, Twitter, and Co. is obviously harmful to society so this whole business model needs to disappear. Case closed once and for all. Simple as that…

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#320

Post by civilized » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #287

civilized wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The activists who demanded this aren't the ones who need to be persuaded on climate change. MIT just handed the center and right-of-center, full of actual climate skeptics who need to be persuaded, another cancel culture event. Your whole post hinges on the assumption that the prospects of fighting climate change hinge on the approval of college town progressives. In reality, their approval is the least important thi…

This "sea of words" stuff is uncivil and doesn't make your comment any more persuasive.

Thanks for saying so. I need to resist the temptation to poke at what I subjectively see as underlying flaws. It is distracting to the discussion.