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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#311

Post by mlang23 »

f6v wrote: post #132
poisonborz wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they did. I also think Lukashenko would have also won most of his elections if they were democratic, losing maybe only the last one marginally. Same with the Chinese communist party. To no surprise - if your people sit on all levels of the government, if you control the media and the public discourse, if you persecute anyone having any chance against you, you win. This doesn't mean other countries need to suppor…

This sort of implies people can’t think for themselves. By this logic, the liberal countries are only liberal because the media tells the people to be liberal. Maybe you’re right.

Yes, that sounds about right. "public opinion" is constructed, covid showed that pretty nicely.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#312

Post by rini17 »

js8 wrote: post #206
rini17 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hungary has the full support of Poland and the V4" Oversimplified view. There was common interest of V4 against accepting refugees, but Czech & Slovak rep. generally support EU's side in judicial and media independence issues. Elsewhere, German automakers have vast investments in the eastern EU and they have been holding Merkel back against Orban, together with conservative faction of CDU.

> Czech & Slovak rep. generally support EU's side in judicial and media independence issues In Czechia, I wish that was true, but our current prime minister Andrej Babis is actually openly admiring Orban, and playing up the same nationalistic politics (before the upcoming elections in October). I am not sure he would necessarily support media and judicial independence if it came down to that.

Oh, same with recent Slovak governments, they say one thing at home and another toward EU. But it is only populism as usual that the EU could eventually work out. So far.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#313

Post by majgr »

paganel wrote: post #32
poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

> The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime Afaik Orban's party has won the last rounds of elections pretty conclusively, with no fraud allegations involved (unlike what currently happens in the US, I'm talking about election fraud allegations). What's with this "Belorussian-style regime" nonsense?

If you only watch regime media, it is impossible to vote differently, only successes, no problems, no shady affairs, no nepotism. Opposition, on the other hand, is portrayed as the root of all evil.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#315

Post by trasz »

krzyk wrote: post #213
_abox wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know nothing about Hungary. But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily. I've travelled a lot in Eastern Europe and I think I know where this is coming from. When communism fell, people rejoiced in joining the EU and getting all the benefits of a free society. However what really happened was that those spoil…

> but in Eastern Europe they moved straight to a caricature of hard neoliberalism Please don't generalise. Have you been to Czech Republic or Poland? There are no such neoliberalisms (I would say same about Hungary, but considering Orban, I'm not sure, I haven't been there) We have good welfare and educated people don't beg on streets, not to mention plastic bags on windows. Your description looks more like one for U…

Poland, welfare? :-D

As for neoliberalism: in Poland the usual way of employment, called "umowa o dzieło", gives the employee pretty much no rights whatsoever. It's almost as bad as in the US in that matter, and not comparable at all to Western Europe.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#316

Post by ant6n »

gattilorenz wrote: post #171
alkonaut wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy isn’t merely “majority rule”. It’s also the concept of everyone’s equal value regardless of ethnicity, sexuality, freedom of expression and so on. Merely getting 51% of votes by disregarding those values is neither acceptable nor democratic. And the EU can’t stand for it just like it could t stand for a regime that takes power through violence. “Belorussian style regime” I assume is in reference to freedom…

> Democracy isn’t merely “majority rule”. It’s also the concept of everyone’s equal value regardless of ethnicity, sexuality, freedom of expression and so on. As much as I would like this to be true, I don't think it is. In practice - and to a certain extent also in theory, if you at least add add some nuance - in every democratic country the majority has power to decide who's granted full rights and value, and who i…

Modern democracies (i.e. the ones set up including the learnings from the Weimar Republic) should include minority protections and defenses of democratic institutions that can not be overridden by simple majorities.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#317

Post by tobltobs »

ipatec wrote: post #293
tobltobs wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hungary has a trade surplus with the EU.

Of course. Check the largest exporters... yea... mainly German companies. That surplus ain't staying in Hungary

what are you trying to say? Hungary has a trade surplus against Germany.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#319

Post by bobthechef »

pjc50 wrote: post #177
zpeti wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally total…

There's almost seven million displaced Syrians. The real failure is to not have dealt with the Syrian crisis, and now the demand to kick out the refugees, no matter how impractical this is or how lethal it would be to them, is rising.

> The real failure is to not have dealt with the Syrian crisis

Most migrants weren't Syrians, btw. But more importantly, I wish to remind you that when this mass migration was inflicted on Europe, the Left was very much in favor of this shitshow. There was no "dealing with the Syrian crisis" then (whatever anyone means by that). Nor was there any acknowledgement that the majority of migrants weren't fleeing Syrians. Syrians should have been helped on the ground in Syria, but only a few states seemed to promote that approach (Poland comes to mind).

All of this should suggest that the mass migration was weaponized.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#320

Post by alkonaut »

hutzlibu wrote: post #277
alkonaut wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there ever comes a time when AfD creates a board to “review” Supreme Court justices, or moves to remove “foreign influence” on media in Germany and so on - then the same discussion will return there. The difference is that conservative nationalism can’t get that type of foothold in Western Europe and the mistake was to include countries in the EU that even had a risk of having a nationalist majority. We should hav…

" The difference is that conservative nationalism can’t get that type of foothold in Western Europe and the mistake was to include countries in the EU that even had a risk of having a nationalist majority" Does spain is included in your non-nationalistic western europe? A state where old fascist are still in charge in justice, police and army? Who cheeringly cracked down on catalonia who dared to organize a referendu…

> Who cheeringly cracked down on catalonia who dared to organize a referendum on independenc

Parts of states do not simply arrange independence referendums without approval from the central government. This would be “cracked down” in every single country on earth. It may well be that Catalonia deserve independence but it’s not exactly surprising or authoritarian of a central government to stop such attempts. Scotland doesn’t arrange an IndyRef without getting a nod from London.

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