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Building a vision of life without work (2015)

livingafi.com

311–320 of 436 posts

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#311

Society which values work will outcompete the one which does not. You and people around you aren't the only ones on this planet, there are highly motivated people elsewhere who will gladly put in effort to take your place.

Outcompete in what sense? Certainly more working can lead to more of something, but I’m not sure we all agree on what that something is, and whether or not all of it is valuable (or even whether a significant amount is something to avoid).

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For those who like the Marvel movies, I think Tony Stark ended up doing rather well with the gift of life that he'd received in the first Iron Man movie. A fictional superhuman-level engineer may not be the best example you could use here.

I think the point is that Stark wasn’t shown having extensive personal friendships, family life, etc. - but he used what he did have (technical ability) to do meaningful work. Obviously, the scope of that work is fantastical, but what’s the point of storytelling if we don’t take inspiration from our characters?

Well it's a lot easier to find meaningful work when one has superhuman abilities. Unlike many in our industry, I am not deluded enough to believe that my talents are particularly special. Further, since I'm not a billionaire like Stark, I have to find a job that I can support myself with foremost, which means meaningfulness takes a back seat. It is very unlikely I would be able to find both.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would feel like a king with 20k a year and so I am trying to find the right degree to work 3, maybe 2 days a week to be able to achieve this? Any suggestions?

If you find anything let me know. Of course here in the US the nigh-insurmountable problem with part time work is that you won't get health coverage at an affordable rate.

Yes, it's actually a bit better since "Obamacare" but still pretty ridiculous. Another is simply finding an employer who agrees to a part-time engineer. I'm typically on 3-6 major projects at any given time and it seems pretty obvious that simply dropping to 2-3 and working half the time would be a pretty easy adjustment to both sides -- but most management considers this unthinkable for some reason.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#314

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

Wow, this post is an incredible example of gut-wrenching honesty about things working out differently than expected. I'm eight months into life without work right now, and can relate to a lot of this. I didn't make a plan to retire (early or otherwise), I just wanted to move abroad and take time to learn the language and think a little about what I want out of life aside from career. I can relate to the anxiety and e…

I don't understand how you can wake up with nothing to do and panic over it. I would always have some hobby or sports project going that I know I'd always want to work on, I seriously can't understand how someone can run out of things to do when there's painting, music, cooking, sports etc, just one of those would keep me busy and socially connected for a lifetime.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#315

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

Wow, this post is an incredible example of gut-wrenching honesty about things working out differently than expected. I'm eight months into life without work right now, and can relate to a lot of this. I didn't make a plan to retire (early or otherwise), I just wanted to move abroad and take time to learn the language and think a little about what I want out of life aside from career. I can relate to the anxiety and e…

A shift in mindset is required. We value our time too much. It's true that it's finite and non-replenishible, but we still value it too much. Once we can see our time for what it's really worth (not much), anxieties about potentially pissing it all away disappear, replaced with ideas and possibilities (most of which may have previously have been classified as "a waste of time").

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#316

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

I really don’t like how he tries to diminish his partner’s feeling about “falling behind” as some mirage created by Instagram and classism. I think it’s pretty uncontroversial that most people don’t want to live on $30k/year for their entire life when they could maybe work and get more. Though maybe this is colored by the relevation that follows shortly thereafter. To me it shows an unwillingness to think critically…

I totally agree, and I also don't think it's a good idea to choose sides here and start to deny the pleasures of accumulating material comforts as something stupid, after all, accumulating nice things IS fun and meaningful! Even though I can agree that it's commonly over emphasized, and that it's not the most important thing after all, it still is really meaningful, and also what gives most people meaning in their lives, after all, so taking a dismissive opinion of this is probably not going to be a good idea..

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that Stark wasn’t shown having extensive personal friendships, family life, etc. - but he used what he did have (technical ability) to do meaningful work. Obviously, the scope of that work is fantastical, but what’s the point of storytelling if we don’t take inspiration from our characters?

Well it's a lot easier to find meaningful work when one has superhuman abilities. Unlike many in our industry, I am not deluded enough to believe that my talents are particularly special. Further, since I'm not a billionaire like Stark, I have to find a job that I can support myself with foremost, which means meaningfulness takes a back seat. It is very unlikely I would be able to find both.

I don’t have any meaningful technical abilities, but I have a job that lets me help people, invest in their futures, and generally live my values. I only make about 45k at age 35 and will never FIRE. So it goes.

Stark is not inspiring to me - but I believe having inspirations is important. Why throw cold water on that because it doesn’t resonate with you.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#318
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40h/week of work leaves very little time for household, kids, exercise, side projects, and relaxing. I think 20h/week is a more reasonable target if you want to enjoy things beside work. Of course it's okay to work 40h/week if you really want to, or even more, if you enjoy it, but you should really think hard about whether that's really what you want, or if it's just what your employer wants you to do.

> 20h/week That's what I have an issue with. When I'm working on a problem, I cannot simply forget about it at 3pm and head to the beach to enjoy life. The problem will be in my head 24/7 until one of us gives up.

If you have the flexibility to restrict your work to 20 hr/wk you probably also get to decide when you work; nothing says you can't work 20 hrs straight, or 80 hrs/week for a month and then take a break. Lots of consulting-type work actually prefers this approach.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#319

This seems unethical to me, you essentially make other people work for you. All the returns from your investments are created by someone who probably does not have the luxury of retiring early, someone who now not only has to work for their life but also for yours.

That's not how the math works out, at least in theory. There are several principles going on: 1. You defer consumption today to instead spend it tomorrow. If you create $100K in value in a year, but only spend $50K of it, shouldn't you be able to instead spend most of that $50K in the future? Our whole retirement system is predicated on this. 2. If you take some of the wealth produced today, and instead of immediatel…

1. You defer consumption today to instead spend it tomorrow. If you create $100K in value in a year, but only spend $50K of it, shouldn't you be able to instead spend most of that $50K in the future? Our whole retirement system is predicated on this.

Sure, you are spending what you earned. And if that is what you are doing, living a less expensive life so that you can finance your entire life with fewer working years, then that is perfectly fine. Probably even worth encouraging as this probably means you are consuming fewer resources.

2. If you take some of the wealth produced today, and instead of immediately consuming it, you "invest" it in something that enables more wealth produced tomorrow than otherwise would have been possible, you should be rewarded with some of that extra wealth produced.

3. Time value of money. Loaning your money or investing it carries a risk. If there is some chance that you may not get it all back, then there must be a premium charged to whomever wants to use your wealth today. Otherwise, you might as well spend it all as soon as you receive it.

In principle I agree, you should be compensated for deferred spending and incurred risk. But something must still be wrong as the outcome makes no sense. If I had to guess, I would maybe suggest systematic overcompensation, i.e. maybe the expected return should actually be exactly zero. But this is impossible to do and then there would be no incentives to invest, so the target becomes positive expected returns.

But as soon as the expected returns become positive you enter the territory of exponential growth which is not sustainable. At the very least returns should eventually drop to zero when the invested money has been multiplied so often that there is no more demand for investments. And all the time you are probably creating huge inequality and with this inequality one might also end up with a distribution of power where some can essentially demand further returns even if they should actually be zero.

In the end I have to admit that I can not truly point my finger to the issue, yes compensation for investments sounds reasonable if you discuss it on its own, but if you look at the consequences at large things do not match up. Your money does no actual work, it creates no value on its own, why should it still allow you to live without working?

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#320
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 20h/week That's what I have an issue with. When I'm working on a problem, I cannot simply forget about it at 3pm and head to the beach to enjoy life. The problem will be in my head 24/7 until one of us gives up.

In my 20s, I was very much like this. When I was struggling with burnout, an older colleague told me that when he leaves the building, he shuts work off entirely and enjoys unrelated things. At the time, hearing this frustrated me because I couldn't even begin to fathom which muscle one would flex in order to "shut off" thinking about work. But now I'm the age that he was back then, and I find I can compartmentalize…

This is very dependent on the individual. I personally prefer intense, all-consuming project-oriented work, followed by longer gaps to recover. I think what we share is some form of a state of decompression/recovery though.
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