Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#311

Post by fredophile » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 8:38 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #267

pentae wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the average subscription to just about any online service is 3.3 months, the 15% after 12 months is simply PR. Nothing more. Apple crunched their numbers and knows exactly what they are doing. What's more amazing is that everyone, including you, has fallen for it.

The idea that subscriptions are the main issue is just fluff. Under 1% of Spotify app users subscribe, for the rest all the add revenue goes to Spotify. Apple distributes the app and gets nothing.

As someone else pointed out in a different comment, Apple benefits from the app ecosystem even when they aren't getting cash for an app so they aren't getting nothing. Apple also has their own ad network so they can profit directly on iOS apps that are ad supported [0].

[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/08/07/apple-a...

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#312

Post by deepstack » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 8:43 AM UTC

Elidrake24 wrote: post #42

encryptluks2 wrote: post #23

You can have third-party Android app stores. Can you say the same about Apple? While I agree that Google has market-dominance, they are not anti-competition or anti-consumer in the same sense as Apple. Android is open source, Chrome OS is open source, etc. Google is actually providing and contributing something back to the community. Apple intentionally locks people to specific hardware and to their app store.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

It really comes down to business model. Apple is a hardware company, they money on things. Google/Alpha is an Ad company, they make money from your data. Of course they can make their code open source, however their practices is going to be targeted towards getting as much user data as possible.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#313

Post by inopinatus » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 8:46 AM UTC

simondotau wrote: post #303

inopinatus wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The release does not say these things, and it is misleading to intentionally paraphrase as to invent logical conflicts that aren't present. In particular, it is wrong to equate the existence of controls with the abuse of market power. Examples: Kicking a scammer off your app store is a use of power that benefits the consumer. Obliging service providers to mislead the consumer about their subscription options is an ab…

> The release does not say these things I'm sorry, but it does. Just because they chose not to phrase it exactly as I did doesn't mean they didn't invoke these logical conflicts. But please, there's no need to take my word for it—I invite anyone to read the press release and form their own conclusion. > it is wrong to equate the existence of controls with the abuse of market power. I agree that it's "wrong" to equate…

> they chose not to phrase it exactly as I did

Quite so. Let's emphasise that: they chose not to phrase it exactly as you did. And by my reading, significantly so.

> I invite anyone to read the press release

How about going one better: read the report that the media release accompanies.

> equating them is a common theme among complaints about Google and Apple's dominance of their platforms' app ecosystems

That's by the by, because this report does not make the same category error, and is a nuanced, lengthy, and considered analysis of the myriad different modes in which their controlling power is underused in some ways that leave the consumer unprotected, and overused/abused in other ways that harm consumer choice, create barriers to market entry, and enable rent-seeking behaviour, and suggests how changes in specific behaviours might correct those pathologies.

> You make it sound like the ACCC is inherently on the consumer's side in any matter

Well, yes, this is their job, their remit, their raison d'être. Deviation from that premise is the exception, not the norm, and frankly they are known globally as one of the most effective consumer regulators, and the ACL as gold-standard legislation that sibling institutions in other nations can only dream of administering. Trying to discredit the organisation because they got pulled into the federal Murdoch toadying over the MBC looks like misdirection.

Which makes me reach for my high school Latin: what is the equivalent of ad hominem when the target entity is an institution, not a person?

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#314

Post by sichtlinkair » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 8:49 AM UTC

fragileone wrote: post #290

bogwog wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bad take. Google is just as guilty of anti-competitive behavior as Apple. Sure, a third party store can exist in the Android ecosystem, but what are the chances that it can be commercially viable? It's practically impossible. * Google shows countless scary warning dialogs to users who even think about installing a third party store. Any competitor trying to run an alternative store needs to somehow educate…

> Yes, Android is open source. The operating system on your Android phone is not open source. What you’re refering to as Android, is in fact, Google Play Services/Android, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Google Play Services plus Android. Android is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another component of a fully functioning Google Play Services system. Many mobile users run a modified version of…

Interesting perspective

> The core is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself

though I think this is a bit exaggerated, no? AOSP gave me a perfectly fine, modern Android 10 experience

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#315

Post by ddingus » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 8:54 AM UTC

hugi wrote: post #216

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not going to name countries and trigger a slugfest. But will include the List of countries with official contact tracing apps[1] and you can search for which services those apps were mandated. EFF commentary on these apps[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_apps#List_of_countrie... [2] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/09/covid-19-tracking-tech...

My country (Iceland) has an official contact tracing app listed there. It was developed by volunteers and contributed to the government and the source is open on github. Nothing you said applies to it.

Nice to see. There are days here... (USA) where I browse about and wonder about immigration.

In my view, you guys have something good. Stay vigilant!

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#316

Post by StopHammoTime » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 8:55 AM UTC

thombles wrote: post #120

Incidentally, if you have a business registered for GST in Australia you have to submit a quarterly activity statement. The tax office website had bizarre authentication requirements but the browser plugin was at least cross-platform. They now require you to use the myGovID app, which is - you guessed it - available only on the App Store and Play Store. You can't even run a business without being part of the duopoly.…

Just responding to this comment because all the comments below it seem to be tone deaf and are just complaining about Governments.

BAS (and all tax documents) can still be submitted via a Tax Agent or via Mail. There is no "lock in". Chances are if you own a computer, you own an android and an apple phone, who cares.

Mountain meet molehill.

Source: https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Business-activity-statements...

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#317

Post by hyperman1 » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 8:58 AM UTC

partomniscient wrote: post #224

stanislavb wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Governments are incapable of doing sensible things involving ever changing technology." - I moved to Australia about 4 years ago. I'm pretty convinced that the Australian Gov is much ahead in regards to tech adoption compared to most places in EU and US. In my 4+ years in Oz, I had to visit an offline institution exactly 3 times (you can do almost everything online). Everything's been flawless, super easy and very w…

Its all fine until you have to complain about something going wrong and it becomes very trying to comply with whatever they need despite it being their fault. I got stuck in a bureaucratic loop because an OCR reader interpreted a 0 as an 8. The fact that the automated process changed status and started throwing more forms at me, even though none it makes sense in context. Just because it was programmed that way. I st…

  The horrible hold music/talk experience where they tell you how wonderful everything is just makes me loathe to attempt it again.

It did exactly what it was supposed to do: lower their costs by making it your instead of their problem.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#318

Post by valparaiso » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 9:00 AM UTC

genuine_smiles wrote: post #277

parasubvert wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no “Apple market” and “Google market”, there is just one market for apps. The respective app stores are direct sales channels. This direct sales exclusivity (ie. no resellers) exists in many other industries. The argument is about whether forcing open channel reseller participation is beneficial to consumers. This was done with the American car franchise dealership, which was legally enforced across most sta…

> There is no “Apple market” and “Google market”, there is just one market for apps. The respective app stores are direct sales channels. This direct sales exclusivity (ie. no resellers) exists in many other industries. I don’t think this holds. I shop at multiple grocery stores, but only one mobile app store. Apple has a monopoly on sales of apps to iPhone users. If I sell fruit I can distribute it through multiple…

Have you followed September's Epic vs Apple hearing? Your statement with grocery store vs app store already doesn't work since for example judge stated to Epic lawyers that Fortnite can be distributed on every platform - iOS, Android, Windows/macOS/Linux, Web and consoles.

If you made an app solely for iOS it was your decision and investment. You could just make it for the Web so every person could access it from any platform.

Closed platforms, as stated by judge to Epic lawyers, are legal types of vertical business. You have Xbox, Playstation and Nintendo with same rules.

If Apple made their way with closed platform from the beginning on mature mobile market the question is why you decided to go to that market (and everyone else) in the first place?

The answer is very simple - on Android most of users are pirating apps, so as developer you won't make a lot of money. Also, in 2008 Apple's 30% tax was unprecedented since in other places it was 50-80%.

Now you, as iOS developer want not to pay Apple's tax but have everything they created - user install base which pays money, push notification services, support and everything else. Just don't want to pay for those services in which Apple invested tens of billions through the years.

From security standpoint - just two weeks ago Android well known third part App Store named APKMirror was installing trojans on user's devices. Do we, Apple users, want same experience? No. That's why most of Google employees/engineers in California and other parts of the world use iPhones and Macbooks.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#319

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 9:18 AM UTC

parasubvert wrote: post #105

twitch-chat wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By consumers do you mean the loud but very small minority that defend Apple in comment sections of online articles? Because if you ask me, my guess is that the average Apple consumer couldn't care less if the platform is opened up or not.

By consumers I mean the people that vote with their wallets by buying iOS devices. If it helps you sleep at night, keep thinking it’s a very small minority. It’s really not.

[deleted]

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#320

Post by Mindwipe » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 9:19 AM UTC

yossarian1408 wrote: post #131

echelon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements. I don't understand this argument at all. You're almost certainly taking more risk driving in a car than downloading an app, yet you're probably willing to embr…

You don't have to do business on the App store. You don't have to launch a startup on the App store. You can buy any device you want, and if there isn't currently one sold that meets your specific criterion, society might be better off if someone takes the initiative to meet this demand rather than force a company to roll out the red carpet for it's competition. Your liberty is not at stake here, nor any real detrime…

> Your liberty is not at stake here, nor any real detriment to your quality of life really.

Yes it is.

iOS controls a sufficient part of US revenue that wider ecosystem effects on what is permitted speech come directly from the app store terms, or at least in some cases about trying to second guess the inconsistently applied, arbitrary and vague as hell App Store rules.

We've got direct testimony from all sorts of app makers that what speech they do and do not censor on the platform (especially around sex, impacting the fundamental liberties and safety of sex workers, queer communities, artists and educators) is directly because their business is such that they need to watch the terms of the app store.

We've seen examples in China of Apple blocking apps that literally lead to people failing to escape authoritarian governments and them disappearing, quite possibly to their death.

Liberty is the fundamental reason that a singular control of what software can be run on mobile device is a thing too dangerous to be allowed to exist. Competition law is probably the most expedient route to fix it, but a centralised app store should be a criminal act on it's own merits.