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Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

reuters.com

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Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#311

Post by sofixa »

timr wrote: post #297
hvac wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that these restrictions were only imposed in December of last year (and are in force until at least 30 June), so I would tend to agree with the parent that they definitely changed directions.

They added some restrictions, certainly, but it's completely inaccurate to suggest that they've somehow reversed course -- the OP is erecting an ideologically rigid, straw-man argument that Sweden can never do anything differently at all , or they are somehow "going back on" their initial approach. Overall, Sweden has taken a light touch with the pandemic, and continues to do so , even though, yes, they've adapted ov…

Of course they went back on their initial approach, same as the UK. If you say "no need to restrict anything, it will go away", your death toll is significantly hire than comparable countries, and then you enact restrictions, what is that? Yes, the situation and our knowledge of the virus and the pandemic is highly evolving and the UK took barely a few months before making a U-turn, while Sweden persisted for many months with their strategy, in spite of the death toll, and some research saying that the economic impact is still significant.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#312

Post by raverbashing »

marvin wrote: post #299
raverbashing wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link. No treatment with immunoglobulin was given in this case, which might explain why it ended unfavorably.

Also, if you're interested, the team of doctors at three Norwegian hospitals have just published their case study of the 5 Norwegian healthcare workers who experienced these rare blood clots. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2104882 The authors conclude "Although rare, VITT is a new phenomenon with devastating effects for otherwise healthy young adults and requires a thorough risk–benefit analysis. The fin…

Thanks, this report is, while describing rare events, sobering

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#313

Post by doublejay1999 »

eloff wrote: post #74
gms7777 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a real world example of a trolley problem. They're choosing to let a large group risk severe disease or death through inaction, rather than pulling the lever and have a small group be at risk due to their actions.

I think that's exactly it. There is a tradeoff to be made here with likely deaths on both sides, and the government is choosing much higher numbers of deaths because it looks better for them politically. That's immoral and cowardly. I don't see any way to justify the decision they've made logically.

Despite having 1 dose of AZ already in my arm, it would give me great peace of mind to find some logical basis for this decision. Until then, I'll continue to suspect politics.

  Country after country appears to have taken a turn doubting the vaccine.  It would be normal for one or two outliers to behave this way, but for so many to defy logic - appearing to take turns falling in line with the EU message - it starts to smell a bit funny.
I've written this before, but if Britain (having left the Union) pulls this off and Europe continues to flounder, it is potentially catastrophic for the Union.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#314

Post by CountDrewku »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #171
Tenoke wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There was a bit of an initial, politically influenced confusion in the US at the beginning up until about June You are downplaying it - they were actively taking a stance against them in the US and June was already quite late into the pandemic. The WHO themselves were advising people NOT to wear a mask and that it might be even more dangerous to wear one than not to wear it months into the pandemic.. They also only…

First, we'll have to ignore the US because the government interference and rampant irrationality there caused hundreds of thousands of lives lost. Regarding the EU: I feel a certain irony, because I was among those who complained that experts give the wrong advice for noble reasons (partly due to good information from HN, btw), called it a "King's Lie" and was heavily downvoted for it on various social media. So I'll…

"First, we'll have to ignore the US because the government interference and rampant irrationality there caused hundreds of thousands of lives lost. "

Oh it did eh? Weird because that same "irrational" government is responsible for getting us vaccinated before almost any other country. The so called rational EU seems to be having a lot of issues right now.

Maybe lay off the Trump propaganda and look at how the US handled the vaccine rollout correctly. I've been vaccinated for over a month and my family has been as well. None of my EU friends have even been scheduled yet. Our economy is opening back up and yours is not, maybe ignoring what we did isn't such a great idea?

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#315

Post by splithalf »

eloff wrote: post #306
splithalf wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! There are NOT likely deaths on both sides. That’s the insanity! There are certain deaths on one side (no vaccine) and virtually certain absence of any deaths on the other side. It is cowardice and self importance triumphing over reason and morality. Imo

The blood clots have already caused deaths, unless I'm mistaken. At any rate it's not "virtually certain absence of any deaths". I agree with your conclusion, but the premise has some issues.

A few deaths out of 6 million defies any confident statistical pronouncements. It is rounding error. That we are so cautious as to halt rollout because of rounding error only speaks to how very cautious and rigorous we’re being with the rollout. People without the background to understand what 6/6,000,000 means in a medical research context will hear these fud statements and opt not to get the vaccine. Some of the people will die because they read smart peoples comments in web forums and thought they would be safer not getting vaccinated. You are throwing the switch in the trolley problem if you are telling people to ignore the scientific consensus and spreading anti vax fud. People need to accept the responsibility that entails.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#316

Post by slashdev »

splithalf wrote: post #315
eloff wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blood clots have already caused deaths, unless I'm mistaken. At any rate it's not "virtually certain absence of any deaths". I agree with your conclusion, but the premise has some issues.

A few deaths out of 6 million defies any confident statistical pronouncements. It is rounding error. That we are so cautious as to halt rollout because of rounding error only speaks to how very cautious and rigorous we’re being with the rollout. People without the background to understand what 6/6,000,000 means in a medical research context will hear these fud statements and opt not to get the vaccine. Some of the pe…

> You are throwing the switch in the trolley problem if you are telling people to ignore the scientific consensus and spreading anti vax fud.

I'm not spreading any FUD. I'm as far from an anti-vaxer as you can get. I think you didn't read my comments.

> A few deaths out of 6 million defies any confident statistical pronouncements. It is rounding error.

But it does suggest there is a problem there. I took issue with your no deaths on the pro vaccine side. That's not true, as you admit.

> People without the background to understand what 6/6,000,000 means in a medical research context will hear these fud statements and opt not to get the vaccine.

This is sadly true. That's the same odds as dying from lightning in a given year. People suck at evaluating risk. I had many arguments with my parents about the risks from the vaccine, when it's literally lower than the risk of getting out of bed in the morning. People are irrational and it makes me sad. I'm also irrational, and I don't always catch it.

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#317

Post by splithalf »

slashdev wrote: post #316
splithalf wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few deaths out of 6 million defies any confident statistical pronouncements. It is rounding error. That we are so cautious as to halt rollout because of rounding error only speaks to how very cautious and rigorous we’re being with the rollout. People without the background to understand what 6/6,000,000 means in a medical research context will hear these fud statements and opt not to get the vaccine. Some of the pe…

> You are throwing the switch in the trolley problem if you are telling people to ignore the scientific consensus and spreading anti vax fud. I'm not spreading any FUD. I'm as far from an anti-vaxer as you can get. I think you didn't read my comments. > A few deaths out of 6 million defies any confident statistical pronouncements. It is rounding error. But it does suggest there is a problem there. I took issue with y…

I disagree with “it does suggest there is a problem there.”

Without statistical evidence we cannot make that claim. There may be a problem, but there is so far no statistical evidence to suggest so. There are anecdotal findings but there are anecdotes about space aliens and we don’t craft policy around that (that the public is aware of.)

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#318

Post by addy34 »

bobthepanda wrote: post #308
addy34 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wish I was living under (3). Sure it's painful in the short term, but compared to rolling lock-downs for over 12 months? Having spent the last year under (3), I dream of 1 or 2. That said, it very much dependent on the country. I live somewhere that is 20 x 20 miles in size (Hong Kong). The strictness of the border control (3 weeks in a hotel room if you leave and come back) make leaving pretty much impossible. Th…

Most people in positions 1 and 2 can’t really leave their countries either, and depending on how strict 2 is you may not have been able to travel far within your country either. This is mostly an artefact of the fact that HK is so small. At least you’re not in Macau, which is 30 sq km?

>At least you’re not in Macau, which is 30 sq km?

Macau has quarantine free travel with the Mainland, so that's >9 million sq km ;)

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#319

Post by DanBC »

incrudible wrote: post #280
sofixa wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was during the first lockdown. More recently, they're closer to capacity: https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-digest-germany-icu-capacit... > How do you know that it didn't help? We know from epidemiological studies that superspreader events were responsible for causing a surge of cases in a short amount of time. It didn't help in the sense that hospitals are overcapacity and new cases, hospitalisation and death r…

"An intensive care doctor has warned that only five to 10% of intensive care beds are still available in parts of Germany." In most countries, running at 90% ICU capacity is the normal state of affairs, Germany being an exception. Of course you can always warn that the health care system is just about to collapse . In 2015: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/19/nhs-collapse... In 2016: https://www.theguardi…

You're ignoring the reality, which is that people died preventable death and suffered preventable harm because hospitals were overwhelemed.

There are thousands of English HCPs talking about this. Here's one: https://twitter.com/seahorse4000/status/1386263023900319745?...

(That comment about staff is for their particular NHS trust, not the NHS as a whole)

We rationed oxygen

We shut the hospital

I was managing icu pts on amu

We stopped elective surgery

We had over 400 staff off with covid

I had 9 pts die on a single shift

Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine

#320

Post by nickthemagicman »

sofixa wrote: post #272
throwawayboise wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they faired much better than e.g. Spain and Belgium. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/24/swedens-2020-death-...

Which are incomparable due to a vast amount of variables ( culture, population density, population spread in housing, temperatures, weather, etc.)

That's patently false.

Everyone compares countries all the time.

You literally just did it a few posts up by comparing it to other Scandinavian countries which are all different from Sweden.

Covid zealots compare other countries to New Zealand when it's convenient.

All with different cultures climate population density etc.

If what you're saying is true then you can't make any claims about any country's success rate because they're all unique.

You're just selecting Sweden as incomparable because it doesn't fit your narrative.

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