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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#311

Post by user-the-name »

lionkor wrote: post #304
user-the-name wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too many to list. Currently working as a senior programmer for the user-facing client for a company worth hundreds of millions, with an app store rating of 4.9. Previously, I've developed open source software that got 5000-10000 downloads a day, and a few private commercial projects that pulled in a few thousand dollars a month. A recent open source project on github has 8k stars. Is that enough credentials to listen…

It's enough credentials to make your criticisms worth thinking about. It's fascinating how, in a few years, I got so familiar with the commandline and never felt like it was too complicated (although I do almost everything through it), both at work and privately. Maybe, with a skillset like that, you could just make the things better that you dont like, instead of what looks like "just complaining".

I have in the past implemented my own shell to work around some of the limitations the usual one had.

But today, I feel no real motivation to do so, because I know that if I tried to release this, the main response I would get would essentially be complaints that I shouldn't be changing things. I don't think any attempt to improve things would be accepted, because people refuse to believe there is anything wrong with what we have.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#312

Post by imtringued »

user-the-name wrote: post #247
avindroth wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say it like pointing out an obvious problem is hard to do. Programming is a very complicated activity, and of course it can be improved. Anything can be improved. There is no doubt about that. The question is whether it is easy to improve. Writing good software is hard. You say it like programmers have ego, but you know what is better than ego? Money. People would lay down their ego to make money (by making a mor…

I write code for a company worth hundreds of millions every day, with a world-class user rating. I don't use the command line at all. I CAN use the command line. I know very well how to do it. I have done it for decades. But when I program for iOS, I don't need it. The tooling is good enough that I never need to. So I don't. There's no reason this couldn't be the case for other environment too. There's nothing magica…

You can just start up Eclipse or Visual Studio (the original) and have the exact same experience. That's how I started with Java and zero Linux knowledge.

What you are really complaining about is the fact that nobody is there to shout in your face that these options exist.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#314

Post by 0x4a42 »

Actually you can code in the browser. You can write JS snippets in the URL, in the URL field, in the console... No need for an IDe, an interpreter or a compiler or to install anything else.

A browser is all you need to start coding and everyone has one installed on their system.

Also on coding is too hard for newbies: JS, Python, PHP are NOT hard. I couln't have became a developper 25 years ago when programming was really hard but nowadays building usefull applications with JS and/or Python the myriad of libaries available and the ridiculous hardware ressources at the disposal of anyone, it's not hard anymore.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#316

Post by joshxyz »

meekrohprocess wrote: post #5

I'm curious if the author has heard of sites like: * https://repl.it/ * https://jsfiddle.net/ I didn't see anything like that mentioned in the article, but I think that you can easily write code inside your browser today. Also, web browsers are already extremely heavy and complicated. That complexity is convenient for end users, but it also has costs, like making it very difficult and expensive to create a new compet…

This this this.

repl.it, stackblitz.com, codesandbox.io, jsfiddle.net, codepen.io

Back then we don't even have online repls jesus christ.

These days devs got it easy it's really amazing

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#317

Post by MaxBarraclough »

user-the-name wrote: post #275
lionkor wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fair, there are commandline tools by third parties that dont conform. From reading your other comments, though, I can tell that you likely don't enjoy learning complicated systems in order to leverage them for your advantage. Just like the author of the article, you complain on and on, without displaying any sort of passion for the good things this complexity brings.

All command line tools are by third parties. There is no first party. And it brings no good things. This is entirely superfluous complexity. You could have all the benefits with far less complexity if you just put in the effort to build and design things. But we don't. We've decided that it is impossible to do so. And many people have decided that knowing all of these obscurities makes them smart, and they will look…

To put that another way: not all command-line applications follow the POSIX/GNU command-line conventions. [0][1][2] I agree that all new command-line applications should do so. It's annoying that Java uses java -version rather than java --version, and I can't see why they couldn't just add support for --version, as they wouldn't have to remove the existing -version.

> many people have decided that knowing all of these obscurities makes them smart, and they will look down on anyone who doesn't.

I don't think it's sysadmins who are pushing for this messy state of affairs, it's that various specific projects refuse to follow the POSIX conventions, presumably for reasons of backward compatibility/general resistance to change.

[0] https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1...

[1] https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Argument-...

[2] https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Command_002dLin...

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#318

Post by uCantCauseUCant »

izacus wrote: post #139
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

Programming COULD use a lot of simplification and removal of barriers. But still, just like you, I really hate the base attitude here. And for a different reason: I find that programmers who think like this, are also lazy when it comes to respecting the user. They're lazy when it comes to supporting accessibility. They're lazy when it somes to properly supporting i18n and making experience great for non-Americans. Th…

We have been there, the cycle has passed three times. We had had them all, the paradigms of self-repairing, self-correcting, best effort software. Resulting in major it disaster created by newbs, burning away years of life of the professionals.

This conversation is so cyclic, that even the longing for "simple software" is by now a meta-perpetum-mobile. This all becomes much more easier to grasp, once you replace "easy to use software" with "cold fusion" or "free energy". I dread the day, were AI is used to deduce how the story ends, and the "autocomplete my thought" software world gives birth to a new horror.

PHP, Javascript, Python -> I wonder why the simple things never stayed simple and grew complexity warts. Maybe humanity just doesn't know what it is doing.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#319

Post by aspyct »

DanielKehoe wrote: post #90
aspyct wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Notepad for the win!

It doesn't have to be Notepad. But it's important to communicate to beginners that they can actually get far without build tools or frameworks. Go stackless. Use the platform.

Couldn't agree more. Actually, even non beginners should be reminded of that, sometimes.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#320

Post by imtringued »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #248
user-the-name wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is 100% correct on everything. Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason. Programmers tend to get very proud of the completely pointless knowledge they have to acquire to use the pointlessly complicated tools they do, and they confuse that with being clever. It's not. It's really not. Nothing has to be this esoteric and annoying. We've just chosen to keep things like this because we th…

> The author is 100% correct on everything. The author is certainly correct on some things, but makes no good argument for why node.js should run in the Browser. I'm not even clear he understands what node is, or what he would gain from being able to use it in the browser, when it can already run Javascript just fine as is. No, Google should stop the show and bring node.js to his browser because he can't be bothered…

There are tools that do what he wants but they are not node.js. That's the problem. The insistence on a specific tool and the desire that the entire world changes to accommodate you instead of just picking a different tool that does what you want.
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