Live data from Hacker News

M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

daringfireball.net

311–320 of 882 posts

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#311
My new M1 Macbook Air arrived today. The excitement was quickly replaced by sober frustration.

Yes apple did a remarkable job with the M1, no they've still lost their mojo when it comes to high quality software.

I've spend the last 3 hours trying the wipe and reinstall the thing, because their non-virgin-os migration assistant is simply unreliable.

So far, I've had issues where the fused Data/OS drive would just split apart, with no clear way on how to properly format the drive back to an installable state. Disk utility giving no indication whatsoever on which level of nested APFS concepts a wipe should even occur. And with absurd error messages like "can't install MacOs, no admin user found" - 'yeah no shit', during install. I really really really wanna like this machine, but MacOs is stuck in this limbo of not wanting to give you any control, yet not taking over those functions for you, so you constantly have to guess what's doable and expected.

Update: Right now I'm trying to reinstall Mac Os via a bootable USB drive, which is actually what's recommended by apple support. (hello mid 2000s)

This is basically my last option, before having to bring it into an apple store.

The previous method apple recommended involved downloading Big Sur via the command line, which didn't work for me, becaue curl failed to write to disk.

I mean, how do you even manage to break curl...

Feels just as much work as setting up a linux laptop...

Final update: Yep, it's dead jim. Apple support suspects a hardware failure. Back to the store you go.

I'm gonna spend that money on 4 DevTerm and a box full of beer.

cheers

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#312
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Qualcomm, Samsung, Cavium/Marvell, and nVidia don't count? Not to mention ARM's own cores...

Samsung stopped Exynos development a year ago. Cavium is basically dead (yes, bought out by Marvell). Qualcomm is interested only in mobile SoCs at mobile SoCs volumes where they can also sell radios, and Nvidia was traditionally not capable of delivering anything at promised power consumption.

Are you sure about Exynos? They announced the 1080 just a couple of weeks ago and the 2100 is expected next year.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#313

Can someone please ELI5 why the M1 is so much faster than every other ARM chip?

The processor looks at the future instructions it will run, can see that some things can be run ahead of time, and can run multiple multiple instructions in parallel (on the same core). You could run individual multiplications in parallel. Most of those things other ARM processors can do that too, but M1 is bigger in some of those sizes, like how many instructions ahead it looks at, how many things can run at once etc.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all going to come down to user experience and versatility. Apple is doing some crazy stuff with the M1, but I personally would chock (most of it) it up more to being clever than true innovation. I think only Intel needs to be concerned right now because they're being outpaced by both AMD and Apple. Additionally if the acquisition of Arm by Nvidia results in what people expect, Intel will basically be losing out…

You don’t just go and make ever part of your chip architecture wider by being clever. Well, there was probably some cleverness involved, but it’s not like this has been a one-off trick.

By clever I mostly mean, from what I've seen from reports, handling stuff like transition from x86 to arm by baking in instruction translation into the die. Their approach with some things is a bit different from what others are doing, but it's not like they wholly invented a new 2nm process that breaks what we thought the laws of physics were, they're using the same fab as everybody else. Thus their design at the moment is clever.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#315
post #297

The author is bashing another author for not doing measurements, yet himself declares that m1 beats all the other CPUs, without providing any measurements. With regards to the M1, I'm grateful for a good competition. As this will likely push premium laptop manufactures (Razer, Dell) towards ryzen CPUs, as opposed to using them in cheaper models. Loosening the grip that intel has on them. With Zen3 on mobile, giving a…

Yeah John Gruber has really become a shill over the last few years. His article reads like an Apple keynote transcript, everything is magical and amazing, a marvel and mindbogglingly great. No wonder they throw him so many exclusives ;)

Yes M1 is great. But it's a closed system (no booting Linux or Windows at this time) and even under macOS you're having even less access to the system's internals than before. Also, Apple performs many tricks to get such long battery life, such as putting apps to sleep when you're not looking at them (app nap). I find this extremely irritating when working with my Mac but I can't turn it off completely even though I have a mini and thus battery life is not a factor at all. My work MacBook spends it entire life docked with the screen closed too.

M1 is a solid platform for sure, better for laptops than intel/amd's offerings. I agree. But I'm getting enough of Apple's (and Gruber's) hypey marketing. It's not magic, just good engineering. I stopped watching their keynotes for the same reason.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#316
I get the "fast and hot" v "slow and cold" history of devices, and am pleased to be told that the M1 has broken this. However, and it may well be that I haven't understood complexities here, a recent Ars review [1] (glowing, by the way) of the M1 MacBook Air, contained this passage:

According to Apple, the MacBook Air's M1 is voltage-limited in order to function within the fanless design's thermal envelope. iFixit's teardown shows in detail that the Air's M1 cooling setup is an entirely passive affair, with just a heat transfer plate in between the M1 CPU and the aluminum body. I was expecting performance similar to but perhaps a bit lower than the M1-powered Mac mini, and that's more or less what I got. However, the Air's M1 is good for at least a few solid minutes of full-bore Firestorm core performance before it throttles back.

In benchmarking, I noticed that subsequent runs of the Final Cut Pro export would slow down dramatically—the first export would complete in about 1 minute and 19 seconds, but if I immediately repeated the export it would take a bit under 2.5 minutes—and the Air would be quite warm to the touch. After closing the lid to hibernate until the Air was cool and then repeating the export, the time was once again in the 1:20-ish range.

To create some more sustained load, I cloned the source video three times and then repeated the export process. Starting from a cold startup with the MBA's chassis at ambient temperature gave a result of 4 minutes, 21 seconds. This time, I opened Activity Monitor's CPU graph to spy on the core utilization. All eight cores were engaged until about 2:56, at which time half of the cores—presumably the high-performance Firestorm cores—dropped to less than 50-percent usage and stayed there until the run completed.

A second run immediately after that took 7:37—not quite twice as long, but heading in that direction. Activity Monitor's CPU usage graph showed half of the cores (presumably the high-performance Firestorm cores) at half utilization for the entire run.

Further testing—including several runs after letting the MBA sit powered off for about an hour to make absolutely sure it was cooled to ambient—failed to produce anything resembling a precise, repeatable time interval for when throttling starts. The best I can do is to say that it seems that when you throw a heavy workload at the MBA, it runs at full-bore until the Firestorm cores become too toasty, which seems to take anywhere from 3-ish to 6-ish minutes. Then it backs the Firestorm cores off until they show about 50-percent utilization, and the amount of heat generated at that level seems to be within the sustained thermal capacity of the design.

My amateur reading of this was that, yes, the M1 is incredibly fast when cold, but when it warms up it becomes measurably slower because of throttling - even if still fast by comparison to previous Air models.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/11/apples-m1-macbook-ai...

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone needs to spend the time/ money to design this M1 killer CPU. There is very little money in delivering powerful Linux laptops. ARM based Linux server CPUs? Very likely. Low end/ Chromebook style laptop ARM CPUs, Already exist. Performant ARM CPUs designed for laptops? I expect you just gotta hope Windows on ARM takes off or start porting Linux to M1 Macs.

Work has already begun to port Linux to M1 Macs. Linux for ARM and Windows for ARM are already running as PoC on the M1 Macs with QEMU (running ARM-on-ARM). https://www.techradar.com/news/you-can-now-run-linux-and-win...

I suspect people interested in "superfast, supercool ARM-based Linux laptops" are looking more for running on bare metal, not in a VM.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#318
post #120
post #100

I've never owned a Mac and don't intend to own one but I'm very happy with this M1 move, mainly for the reasons highlighted in the introduction to the article: >M1 Macs embarrass all other PCs — all Intel-based Macs, including automobile-priced Mac Pros, and every single machine running Windows or Linux. Those machines are just standing around in their underwear now because the M1 stole all their pants. I think it's…

> I want to believe. If we can end up with superfast, supercool ARM-based Linux laptops, that'd be a huge deal :)

Yeah, that would be really amazing. Is it even possible to install Linux on this new Mac though? Probably not. Will Apple offer these chips to other manufacturers? Would be cool if we could build small form factor PCs with these M1 chips!

I also wonder about the driver situation. Intel hardware has excellent support on Linux, everything works out of the box. Apple probably has zero interest in contributing drivers to the Linux kernel.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#319
post #311

My new M1 Macbook Air arrived today. The excitement was quickly replaced by sober frustration. Yes apple did a remarkable job with the M1, no they've still lost their mojo when it comes to high quality software. I've spend the last 3 hours trying the wipe and reinstall the thing, because their non-virgin-os migration assistant is simply unreliable. So far, I've had issues where the fused Data/OS drive would just spli…

You have demonstrated exactly why I don't care how fast the M1 runs, I'm not buying Apple hardware. Not until I start hearing that they have done something about their long quality slide.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25238688 for the last time that I expressed this opinion on HN.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#320
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The numbers say otherwise.

When iPhone came out in 2007, Android was still an OS for BlackBerry like devices. It didn't take long for Android to discover touch screens once Apple made it clear that they were dramatically better. Similarly, it's not like other ARM chip manufacturers are going to have to go through all of the same R&D expense to figure out how to make chips that are comparably fast--they just need to copy what Apple did without…

Qualcomm has been unable to compete with Apple's ARM phone processors for years. It's gotten to the point that the only processor that comes close to a new Apple SOC on benchmarks is Apple's previous SOC. Why do you expect the PC market will be different than the phone market?
Post reply on HN