Live data from Hacker News

The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

newyorker.com

311–320 of 322 posts

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Agreed on not creating silos. There's one big silo, with the people who have stayed within it, and the people who have left outside it. There aren't very many women here, which I assume is because of how the HN conversations about issues important to women tend to play out. This isn't an HN-specific problem, it's industry-wide. But I didn't go into software until my 30s, so the gender skew of the industry feels ali…

There aren't very many women here There is a great deal more female participation than there used to be. It's just not obvious for various reasons, but it's something I have paid attention to over the years and used to keep private data on to some degree.

Hi Doreen,

Always good to hear from you. I'm glad there's been progress; I wish the climb were not out of such a deep hole.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17777496 [2018]

> Yeah, that's why I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leaderboard of HN

Do you think there's anything that HN's guides could do differently?

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual comment does not match your story. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16268353

Oh really? I'm curious, I've kept all the emails. Did you read those emails, and if so, how? Do you know why I was rate limited? The thread he referred to wasn't actually one I started. I made one comment in it. dang stated that "I'll try to give you more of a response later when I have time", but this never eventuated. Incidentally, it was a very difficult time of my life, so I was genuinely reaching out to find out…

I think the veracity of your description of the linked thread is probably similar to that of your description of these emails.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There aren't very many women here There is a great deal more female participation than there used to be. It's just not obvious for various reasons, but it's something I have paid attention to over the years and used to keep private data on to some degree.

Hi Doreen, Always good to hear from you. I'm glad there's been progress; I wish the climb were not out of such a deep hole. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17777496 [2018] > Yeah, that's why I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leaderboard of HN Do you think there's anything that HN's guides could do differently?

I saw this not long after you posted it. We were ordering lunch, so I didn't have the ability to reply immediately, but I also wasn't sure I wanted to reply at all.

My ex husband had some terrific saying to the effect of "That's a When did you stop beating your wife? type question." And his point was that there is a deep assumption of guilt in the framing of some questions such that it's nearly impossible to answer them well at all and not somehow get trapped into agreeing that you are guilty.

Because if your knee jerk reaction is "I haven't stopped beating my wife....(because I've never been a wife beater)", before you can get to the "I've never beaten my wife" part of your thought process, the asker will go "So, you still beat your wife. I see." and won't let you rebut that. If you try to clarify, they will jump all over that as you changing your story or something and no matter what you say, they will return to their assumption of guilt and see every single answer as additional evidence of your guilt.

Your question here concerning women and HN implicitly assumes that the mods and/or the guidelines are somehow at fault and doing something wrong, and I don't think that's the case.

I hesitate to reply at all because part of the answer in my mind is that "It skewed more male when Paul Graham was the moderator. I think Dan Gackle does excellent work and he's made good headway on the issue in the years he has been here. It just takes time to turn the Titanic around as the saying goes."

And I don't like wanting to say that because I feel like then people will infer that I am accusing Paul Graham of something and that's not remotely my intent. It's like saying "I haven't stopped beating my wife....(because I never started beating my wife, damn it!)" and knowing everyone listening is going to go "Oh...so you really are pure evil. Thanks for clearing that up."

I don't think Paul Graham is somehow "to blame" for the forum skewing strongly male. YC itself has a good track record on diversity and my impression is that they are actually really quiet about that fact.

According to something Jessica Livingston wrote, Jessica and Paul were dating and they kept batting about ideas while some company was kind of stringing her along and not quite hiring her and Paul said one night "Let's start our own company." And within a day or two he contacted his two co-founders from Via Web and asked them to get on board and they agreed to do so, but only on a part-time basis (or so I understand).

So the company actually started out fifty-percent female on day one, though it didn't stay fifty-percent female for very long, and after a few years the other half of the two initial founders retired. So it's really much more of a woman-led company than I think gets generally recognized. I think Jessica Livingston is much more of a cornerstone of YC than the world thinks. The world thinks of YC as "Paul Graham's company," even though he stepped down several years ago from an active role in running it and Jessica is still there.

I know of a VC company that was founded explicitly to fund minority-led companies (women, people of color and LGBTQ founders) and the founder of that company has said she tells her people to not apply to YC because she has a poor opinion of them. Which I find bizarre because everything I see indicates YC has a lot of partners that are women, people of color and/or LGBTQ.

I'm currently going through Startup School and both the presenters in the videos are fairly frequently not cis het white males and the live audiences for these videos are quite diverse. A lot of people asking questions have thick accents.

So my general impression is that YC has a remarkably good track record on diversity that largely goes unrecognized and I don't think HN ended up skewing so starkly male due to sexism on Paul Graham's part. All the evidence suggests he, personally, has a good track record on treating women like equals and if he didn't YC wouldn't exist at all.

I wasn't here at the very beginning. I joined in July 2009 (under a different handle) and I was really sick at the time and it took a few years for me to realize that people here were talking at me like I was "prominent" for a female member and for me to go "What the hell?" and start trying to put together data of some sort privately just to figure out how to navigate HN better myself.

So I don't actually know how HN ended up skewing so strongly male to begin with (because I wasn't here to see how that went down) and I probably have no hope of figuring out how that came to be. But I have no reason to believe it's because YC or the moderators of HN or the guidelines for HN are somehow wrong and bad and sexist and excluding women.

I think it's probably more complicated than that and probably a lot of it boils down to something I think Dan Gackle once said to the effect of "When it's raining hard everywhere, it gets wet in here too."

In other words, sexism is everywhere. It's not like HN invented it. So I think it's unreasonable to implicitly assume HN is "doing something wrong" in that regard.

I have a pretty high opinion of HN overall. I think a better question would be "What is HN doing right that it's gotten better over the years given how rampant sexism is generally in the world?"

(Yes, I know, this isn't the answer most people expect given how much I bitch about sexism on HN at times. It impacts me. I need to try to make my life work.)

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi Doreen, Always good to hear from you. I'm glad there's been progress; I wish the climb were not out of such a deep hole. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17777496 [2018] > Yeah, that's why I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leaderboard of HN Do you think there's anything that HN's guides could do differently?

I saw this not long after you posted it. We were ordering lunch, so I didn't have the ability to reply immediately, but I also wasn't sure I wanted to reply at all. My ex husband had some terrific saying to the effect of "That's a When did you stop beating your wife? type question." And his point was that there is a deep assumption of guilt in the framing of some questions such that it's nearly impossible to answer t…

> "What is HN doing right that it's gotten better over the years given how rampant sexism is generally in the world?"

I'd say pinning stories and then pinning comments at the top urging civil discussion seems to work fairly well for a broad set of controversial topics, including gender-related hot-button issues.

However, there is still so much hostility and such a strong gender skew that you even if the comments obviously violating HN guidelines get flagged, the residual of borderline commentary is still overwhelming in the aggregate.

It's possible to do more. Consider the moderation strategies used by Jezebel and TheRoot, where comments either have to be posted by someone on a whitelist maintained by staff, approved by someone on the whitelist, or approved by the person being replied to if their comment was approved. That moderation system allows those sites to keep the hostility just barely at bay, and you will read perspectives playing out in long threads on those sites which would be instantly shouted down on HN.

The cost of the system used at Jezebel/TheRoot is that it reduces the scope for debate, since only approved commenters can disagree at will — an unapproved commenter replying in disagreement will usually be ignored. Still, I wonder whether some sort of whitelisting mechanism isn't the only way to allow to allow underrepresented perspectives to develop fully.

(For what it's worth, this would also apply to certain socially conservative perspectives which tend to have a short life on HN.)

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw this not long after you posted it. We were ordering lunch, so I didn't have the ability to reply immediately, but I also wasn't sure I wanted to reply at all. My ex husband had some terrific saying to the effect of "That's a When did you stop beating your wife? type question." And his point was that there is a deep assumption of guilt in the framing of some questions such that it's nearly impossible to answer t…

> "What is HN doing right that it's gotten better over the years given how rampant sexism is generally in the world?" I'd say pinning stories and then pinning comments at the top urging civil discussion seems to work fairly well for a broad set of controversial topics, including gender-related hot-button issues. However, there is still so much hostility and such a strong gender skew that you even if the comments obvi…

That system implicitly assumes hostility as the default norm and I think it's one of those approaches that tends to follow the Shirky Principle of keeping alive the problem it is nominally intended to fix.

I hope the mods of HN never go with such a system.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#316
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never knew it was built in. I do the same as other people: I type it into the text box, walk away, come back to my computer later and if I still think it’s worth posting, do so. Probably abandon 75% of my “contributions” that way. It also helps that you can only post like 5 times per 24 hour period. Helps me to not waste my quota on low value replies. It doesn’t look like everyone on the site is subject to that limit…

You've been experiencing that because your account is rate limited. We rate limit accounts when they post too many low-quality comments too quickly and/or get involved in flamewars. I've looked through your recent history and it seems fine, so normally we'd remove that restriction from your account—but you just said it was helpful, so maybe I shouldn't? You're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com if you want it remove…

Wondering if Show HN links to Amazon books are appropriate? This was my first and only post and it looks like it got me banned.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "What is HN doing right that it's gotten better over the years given how rampant sexism is generally in the world?" I'd say pinning stories and then pinning comments at the top urging civil discussion seems to work fairly well for a broad set of controversial topics, including gender-related hot-button issues. However, there is still so much hostility and such a strong gender skew that you even if the comments obvi…

That system implicitly assumes hostility as the default norm and I think it's one of those approaches that tends to follow the Shirky Principle of keeping alive the problem it is nominally intended to fix. I hope the mods of HN never go with such a system.

Things that do not keep me awake at night worrying:

* The thought that HN might adopt Jezebel's moderation system.

* Whether sexism and racism will survive if Jezebel and TheRoot disappear.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh really? I'm curious, I've kept all the emails. Did you read those emails, and if so, how? Do you know why I was rate limited? The thread he referred to wasn't actually one I started. I made one comment in it. dang stated that "I'll try to give you more of a response later when I have time", but this never eventuated. Incidentally, it was a very difficult time of my life, so I was genuinely reaching out to find out…

I think the veracity of your description of the linked thread is probably similar to that of your description of these emails.

Said without you ever reading them.

Not sure how the veracity of my description of the thread (that’s some tortuous indirect speech!) is inaccurate.

Re: The Lonely Work of Moderating Hacker News (2019)

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the veracity of your description of the linked thread is probably similar to that of your description of these emails.

Said without you ever reading them. Not sure how the veracity of my description of the thread (that’s some tortuous indirect speech!) is inaccurate.

Yeah, I didn't enjoy writing it either, but we're the only two people reading this subthread, so I'm not going to edit carefully. It's all a long-winded way of saying that the link upthread does a good enough job summing this whole situation.
Post reply on HN