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How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

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Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#311

Post by thu2111 »

EForEndeavour wrote: post #305
thu2111 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The local incinerator here in Switzerland isn't merely burning the waste. IIRC it gets vapourised using a high energy plasma or something like that, broken down to constituent atoms. At any rate it belches smoke into the atmosphere in the middle of a city, has done for a while and nobody seems to suffer any ill effects, so I believe them that the "burning" is highly effective.

That sounds like plasma gasification ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_gasification ). Out of curiosity, which city are you in? > it belches smoke into the atmosphere in the middle of a city, has done for a while and nobody seems to suffer any ill effects How long is a while, and how does that compare to the time it would take to detect meaningful increases in cancer or other illnesses in the vicinity of the inc…

http://fernwaerme-zuerich.ch/index_en.htm

Was built in 1995, or so it claims, with other kinds of incineration being done for >100 years.

So 25 years or so. I think that's enough time for a clear effect to show up.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#312

Post by imtringued »

XorNot wrote: post #180
Baeocystin wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plastic does have a (significantly) lower carbon footprint per bag than paper to produce. This doesn't factor in disposability, of course, but that's probably where that message originated from.

That seems like the type of analysis where someone lumped in the coal fired power station as well. Those are always the most disingenuous ones.

The problem with plastic is that it doesn't rot. So if you leave it outside it's going to stay there for a long time and mess up nature. If you put it in a land fill it's not a problem. Paper is more energy intensive because plastic bags require very little plastic. Most of them weigh 5 grams.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#313

Post by imtringued »

cameldrv wrote: post #281
BlueTemplar wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least returning bottles to the store actually works...

For glass bottles, yes. That's been done for a long time, and they're 8 cents a bottle. What's perhaps poorly remembered is that when plastic started to come into use in the 90s, the government decided that reusable plastic bottles should have a pfand of 15 cents, and single use plastic bottles should have a pfand of 25 cents. This means that bottles that specifically cannot be reused must be held onto and carried ba…

Maybe you don't understand the system but as you have described it is working as intended. Recycling is a meme. The point of a deposit system is that you return your bottles so that they can be disposed of properly. Maybe it is too difficult for you to understand but lots of people would litter without the deposit. There is no cultist conspiracy theory behind the deposit program.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#314

Post by imtringued »

randcraw wrote: post #257
GhostVII wrote: post #56

I'm not convinced that it's actually a bad thing to dump plastic and paper into a landfill. You just cover it up with dirt and plants every 20 years and build a new one, pretty low impact as long as you have it properly sealed off. Even gets rid of some CO2. Probably better than putting lots of energy into recycling when it isn't actually efficient to do so.

You're not convinced... because you understand the component costs and you believe they add up favorably? Or you don't know and don't care? The answers to your suggestion start with knowing the volume of plastic, time to degrade, degradation byproduct toxicity, and alternative 'recycling' methods and their costs. There's also clear evidence that the 'current' model and practice for plastic disposal (that you endorse)…

Degradation only matters in nature. That plastic was taken from the earth and nobody gives a damn about the toxicity of oil sitting in the ground. Nobody worries about how long it takes for it to degrade. If you bring the plastic back to where it came from you've done enough.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#315

Post by imtringued »

m463 wrote: post #229

A friend - a chemical engineer - worked on a plastics recycling project years ago (90's) They worked on recycling plastic, but the problem was: - it was very expensive to clean the plastic - even when the plastic was cleaned, it could only be mixed with virgin plastic at a very small ratio - single digit percentages - even the small ratio would weaken the plastic considerably. Think laundry baskets which are flexible…

Burning the plastic will release CO2. Just bury it.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#316

Post by thinkcontext »

01100011 wrote: post #234
thinkcontext wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Producing plastic generates 5x the co2 contained in it.

How does paper compare?

The figure I've seen most often is between 2-3x. However, that doesn't take into account the huge variance if you consider land use changes, which depending on the land (say clearcutting Indonesian forest), could make it be over 10x.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#317

Post by thinkcontext »

gumby wrote: post #275
01100011 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does paper compare?

I’d like to see some figures, but my understanding is that while paper production is highly polluting ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_liquor ) and consumes power in heating, transport and the like, plastic production is still worse on a carbon basis. But it’s @ thought calculation: for example you can truckload of plastic bags for less than it costs to transport a truckload of paper bags (and you can fit more p…

I've seen between 2-3x as being papers co2 footprint but that excludes landuse changes. Transportation is a small amount of either's footprint.

Your comment about paper not breaking down in an anaerobic environment is incorrect. Like other organic material such as food scraps it gets broken down by bacteria and if there's no oxygen anaerobic ones which will produce methane.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#318

Post by [deleted] »

x87678r wrote: post #4

I can't remember where I read it but there was the view that recycling allows people to think they're environmentally responsible when they aren't. eg the typical family has multiple cars, lives in a big suburban house, has heating/ac buys loads of stuff but recycles their cardboard/glass so thinks their environmental impact is small.

[deleted]

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#319

Post by 52-6F-62 »

spodek wrote: post #222
52-6F-62 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> buy what's in season at the farmers market, what the CSA delivers, and from the bulk section. I buy from the same farmers so we've become friendly and they give me a lot of free vegetables -- the ugly ones they take back to compost or the greens others decline when they buy beets or radishes and don't know they're edible. This is tangential but brings me to something I find hilarious. Farmers here don’t tend to giv…

The opposite of my experience. A couple weeks ago I got as many heirloom tomatoes as I could carry. They were slightly bruised. Most of the time, people buy beets, cauliflower, etc and ask the vendor to keep the leaves or the vendor takes off the outermost leaves from broccoli.

Oh I didn't mean to imply it's all they bring! Like I said—those farms have amazing produce and they also bring that stuff in. But in my experience at the satellite farmers' markets here in Toronto I've noticed they will also bring their "rustic" vegetables that are scooped up by unwitting hipsters at a premium. The smug small-town guy in me has a brief laugh about it. (If you ever watch An American Pickle a few of the scenes in that are markedly close to reality)

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#320

Post by SoylentOrange »

Question: I’ve previously read that recycling is economically viable in some EU countries (Germany, Austria, Netherlands). Some countries like Finland have figured out ways to recycle components that go into landfills in the US. How did they manage to do this?

Was it through regulation on the type of plastics that are sold to consumers? Was it through government subsidies? Through a better sorting process? Something else?

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