Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#311

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

alchemism wrote: post #126

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #62

> He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams. 315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) all at one time. Enough to really wrangle your marbles even if you're used to that kind of stuff. edit: To expand, that's about the dosage most people would get delusions of some sort, but not be 1…

I’ve seen club kids go into what I can only describe as an ‘ambulatory trance state’ at the dosage levels you speak of. I talked down one or two people from completely destroying their environment while in such a state, by using deliberately de-escalatory calming techniques. I’m aghast the police would use such a substance because it is indeed a recipe for disaster when mixed with their expectations of behavior.

[deleted]

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#312

Post by honksillet » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:39 PM UTC

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #13

Setting aside the fact that this kind of thing happens at all: How is ketamine the drug of choice?! Although it has a very high active dose:fatal dose (alluded to in other comments), accepted practice for "chemical restraint" is Thorazine+Valium (or equivalent); ketamine is basically never used for behavioral "sedation" by any medical professional.

The amount of opioids on the streets of the US (and elsewhere) is staggering. Many people are on a cocktail of different street drugs (meth + heroine where I live). You don't want to be adding a benzo like valium to someone who has opioids in their system due to respiratory depression.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#313

Post by sudosysgen » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:39 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #287

wonderwonder wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't think it is entirely fair to put 100% of the blame on the police. A much healthier solution would be to try de-escalating general tensions between the police and the population." Right, its not the fault of the armed people with godlike power to kill, arrest and detain to their hearts content based on nothing but a feeling or bias. Its the fault of the people being harassed and killed for not properly genufl…

Well, the day-to-day job of these armed people is to deal with other violent, and often armed people, before they go out on the general public. Besides, there are quite a few cities that have considerably limited the police power by now. Minneapolis, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Portland for example. The safety of regular law-abiding people has considerably dropped. Murders are up, gun sales are up, almost every type…

I'm not a person living in a 7 figure property neighborhood, and the cops definitly make this worse.

If you want to know about how great the RCMP, you should read how nice they are to help local police departments to give free one-way tours into the forest at night in the winter to minorities, by very helpfully shielding them from the evil bureaucrats.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#314

Post by throwanem » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #301

throwanem wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I don't mind; it was something like 15 years ago anyway, and obviously didn't amount to anything in the first place. Baltimore PD officers wear black uniforms. One night one of them was standing in the middle of the street I was driving down, and there weren't enough streetlights in that section. I was doing something like 40 in a 30, and the first thing I knew that anything was wrong was when I heard a loud th…

Thanks for sharing your story. I truly wonder through, how much was it about your skin color vs.: 1. The professional attire and the fact that you pulled over and apologized. 2. The cop being busy with something else that's more important than busting a random pothead.

I didn't apologize! Dude was sixty feet away still standing in the street when I got out of the car, I didn't say anything and neither did he. He looked me once over, waved me off, and forgot me.

And that's just my point. Based entirely on how I looked, he judged the incident to have been a harmless accident and not worth pursuing, despite that I had a felony charge worth of dope in my front pocket at the time. Pretty important, if you get to make that bust! But he never had any idea of the chance that passed him by, because, to him, I looked like somebody who wouldn't.

What I'm saying is, think for a minute about how that could've played out differently if, in that cop's eyes, I'd have looked a different way.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#315

Post by wonderwonder » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

john_moscow wrote: post #287

wonderwonder wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't think it is entirely fair to put 100% of the blame on the police. A much healthier solution would be to try de-escalating general tensions between the police and the population." Right, its not the fault of the armed people with godlike power to kill, arrest and detain to their hearts content based on nothing but a feeling or bias. Its the fault of the people being harassed and killed for not properly genufl…

Well, the day-to-day job of these armed people is to deal with other violent, and often armed people, before they go out on the general public. Besides, there are quite a few cities that have considerably limited the police power by now. Minneapolis, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Portland for example. The safety of regular law-abiding people has considerably dropped. Murders are up, gun sales are up, almost every type…

I am sure you are satisfied, your police force kills civilians at a rate 1/3 that of the US. What techniques work there that we are ignoring? Does your police force use de-escalation? Majority of ours does not.

Perhaps the problems that the police are meant to solve are in part caused by the police? If I was always treated as a suspect after a while I may start to become resentful. If I was a minority representing 13% of the general population but represented 38% of the prison population I may start to become resentful and argue that there is a problem. Your argument that just because people live in peaceful 7-figure neighborhoods they should be grateful to the police for suppressing the riff raff, poor and minorities is very grating, classist and very much racist.

The NYPD has a budget of $10 billion dollars, and the only limits imposed on it were to please stop beating, murdering, framing and raping people. If those limits are too stringent I am not really sure where to go from here.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#316

Post by wonderwonder » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #313

john_moscow wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the day-to-day job of these armed people is to deal with other violent, and often armed people, before they go out on the general public. Besides, there are quite a few cities that have considerably limited the police power by now. Minneapolis, New York, Chicago, Seattle, Portland for example. The safety of regular law-abiding people has considerably dropped. Murders are up, gun sales are up, almost every type…

I'm not a person living in a 7 figure property neighborhood, and the cops definitly make this worse. If you want to know about how great the RCMP, you should read how nice they are to help local police departments to give free one-way tours into the forest at night in the winter to minorities, by very helpfully shielding them from the evil bureaucrats.

Based on OP's arguments, I am not so sure he sees this as a bad thing.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#317

Post by iamericfletcher » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

Answer me this...if an EMT is able to administer ketamine via injection to an "out of control" "suspect" at a "crime scene", lethal dose or not, why on earth couldn't the police officers, who are armed, protected, and highly skilled in restraining individuals, subdue the subject with handcuffs and or leg restraints? Perhaps some pepper spray, or a net gun that renders them to the ground unable to freely move about?

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#318

Post by adventured » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:42 PM UTC

ezoe wrote: post #289

Wow. Another reason I will never set my foot on US jurisdiction. It's just too dangerous. The law doesn't exist at all.

In terms of there being no law, it could be worse, you could be in eg Japan, where the police openly cozy up to the Yakuza and intentionally allow & support them in operating as a $6 billion per year criminal syndicate that de facto runs Japan's business and political systems with zero opposition (it's not even illegal to be a member, nobody will touch them). Now that's fully institutionalized zero law jurisdiction in action, they don't even pretend in Japan, corruption is an integral part of the fabric of the system. The law is whatever the Yakuza says it is.

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#319

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

pstuart wrote: post #310

kuzimoto wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of people in the US go throughout their entire lives having perfectly normal interactions with the police. This does not represent "normal" police behavior. > The law doesn't exist at all. This is just hyperbole. I bet you can find cases of police behaving poorly in any country.

> The vast majority of white people in the US go throughout their entire lives having perfectly normal interactions with the police. FTFY.

[deleted]

Re: Ketamine that's injected during arrests draws new scrutiny

#320

Post by nitwit005 » Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #286

I guess most people here have never been in public safety or law enforcement. The number of drug-addled, violent, danger-to-themselves-and-others people encountered in the US is unusually high and increasing. This is compounded by the inability (right now) of the justice system to either put them into either suitable treatment programs (with mandatory detention, essentially) or incarcerate them (a gradual but steady…

If the police kill people, scrutiny should happen. The same is true of doctors, dentists, or any other profession with serious consequences to people's wellbeing.

If you can't handle that scrutiny, change professions.