Popular seafood species in sharp decline around the world • Hacker News Board

Re: Popular seafood species in sharp decline around the world

#311

Post by zackmorris » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

saddlerustle wrote: post #116

zackmorris wrote: post #100

I'm shocked that the article didn't mention this, but the mass die-offs we're seeing are because the world's coral reefs will be dead by 2050: https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/environment-90-per... https://www.businessinsider.com/great-barrier-reef-could-dis... https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2020/02/24/70-90-per... The effect of this is that 500 million pacific islanders will be forced to flee to So…

> 500 million pacific islanders will be forced to flee to Southeast Asia How the heck did you come up with this number? The entire population of Oceania excluding Australia, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea is 3 million.

Hey sorry for the mixup, you're right, I should have said from Southeast Asia. I didn't realize that Indonesia and the Philippines were part of it.

I was trying to make the point that the influx of refugees from Pacific island nations will destabilize regions like Korea and Vietnam which have already seen such terrible conflict. India's going to be underwater, so there's going to be a northward migration of something like 500 million people from there and elsewhere.

The endgame is that those countries will likely be communist and a mix of non-christian religions. So the US seems to be positioning itself as pro-Russia and anti-China in a divide-and-conquer strategy. I think that's shortsighted, because the 21st century won't have 20th century politics. I'd rather see our attention turn towards not screwing over the developing countries that provide our goods and services. We could like, trade with them rather than bomb them. Admittedly, I'm probably misreading this, and also don't want to detract from environmental discussion.

Re: Popular seafood species in sharp decline around the world

#312

Post by munk-a » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 7:08 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #308

munk-a wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have a bad president you're going to be put through four years of hell - when you have a bad king you're going to be put through four decades of hell. Additionally kingship, no matter how well designed before hand, degenerates into nepotism since part of the assumption with kings is near absolute power. The dreamt of "Philosopher King" will never happen. Putting the power into few hands is extremely dangerou…

Power corrupts even the best of the minds, and ultimate power corrupts... ultimately. Those kings would be in danger of ending up as another North Korea - evil dynasties ruling forever. One big problem is, if you are on top, life can be relatively great even in utter catastrophe, at least when looked through optic of usual sociopath/psychopath that usually end up on top. It can actually help if your goals are pervert…

I agree - we're in a terrible situation right now... So, how do we solve it and dig our way out of the hole?

I'm not suggesting that we can wish corruption away - I'm not even trying to imply that doing it will be easy. I just think it's the only way to return to sane governance. There are some ways we could increase voter representation like IRV & abolishing the electoral college. Increased representation makes it harder for crooks to stay in power, but even getting that through is a struggle (otherwise we would've done if when we realized it was better than what we have now).

And, in the meantime, we need to work with what we've got.

Re: Popular seafood species in sharp decline around the world

#313

Post by JoshTko » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

irthomasthomas wrote: post #219

Everyone please stop blaming coral bleaching on climate change. Nitrogen run-off from farming is the main cause. We need to reduce nitrogen enrichment in farming, which will lead to lower yields and lower profits (or, more likely, higher prices). But blaming climate change here is an egregious example of green washing which will prevent or delay resolving the real issue. Stop it. Please. "Anthropogenic nutrient enric…

Your sources don't seem to exclude warmer waters as a contributor to bleaching. From your first source "...recent scientific results show that increased nutrient levels can reduce the heat stress tolerance of corals..." So it seems that runoff + heat both contribute to coral bleaching.

Re: Popular seafood species in sharp decline around the world

#314

Post by njarboe » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #293

njarboe wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill Gates has funded the development of a new nuclear reactor design that is much smaller and safer than current ones and uses the huge current US stockpile of depleted uranium as a fuel source. He was going to build it in China, as the US permitting process is very difficult (impossible?), put that is no longer possible with the current US/China political environment. Environmentalists have been fighting nuclear po…

While I support nuclear as part of the mix for clean energy, it's very important to understand that nuclear is NOT failing due to "propaganda" alone. The problem is the cost, in particular the capital cost. You see similar costs globally, even in places where environmental opposition to nuclear is basically a non factor like China. Given current costs (check the Lazard decks) and likely trends, it's pretty possible t…

Fukushima was built in the early 1970's from an early 1960's design. Nuclear power had barley started to be developed and then all development stopped. Of course there are many reasons for that, but if we had continued to develop new nuclear tech from the 70's till today, imagine how many extremely safe and inexpensive reactor concepts could have been developed.

This is, of course, a long and complicated topic, not very amenable to forum discussion. Maybe it was a good idea that nuclear power was not developed, not because it was physically dangerous, but because giving the human race that much more access to power/energy at that point in history may have had a bad outcome. We may have needed slow down the industrial revolution's exponential advance for a bit.

Re: Popular seafood species in sharp decline around the world

#315

Post by ajmurmann » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 7:12 PM UTC

animal_spirits wrote: post #249

wonderwonder wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Issue is that we are not going to. Just like we are not going to solve global warming by individuals making better carbon choices or even nations as other nations will just do whatever they want. We are only going to win these battles by creating cheaper better alternatives. India and China are not going just stop using coal in the middle of their economic expansion. People are just not going to stop eating meat, esp…

Yeah but what about YOU? Are YOU going to choose to not eat meat? Or are YOU going to wait to see what everyone ELSE does first? Its a game theory problem.

It is indeed the tragedy of the comments. That's why we need regulations, sanctions etc. This needs to be the number one issue for all international negotiations.

I say that as someone who cut down on 95-99% of meat consumption to reduce my carbon footprint and because I feel terrible for the animals

Re: Popular seafood species in sharp decline around the world

#316

Post by GordonS » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 7:14 PM UTC

Depurator wrote: post #128

beached_whale wrote: post #20

We should be fixing farmed fish. When was the last time people ate wild cow. It's not sustainable for a population to be exploiting wild fish, farm properly and learn to do it quickly. As long as we eat meat, we have to do it in the least intrusive way.

I'm doing a Ph.D. in salmon farming, it's an exciting field for sure. Just to address some common misconceptions: * The feed used for norwegian salmon is about 70-80% plant based, so the fish is a net producer of marine protein. The majority is soy, and the industry is trying to transition to sustainable feed ingredients such as insects (see Protix) and micro algae for EPA/DHA (See veramaris) * The farmed salmon does…

I've done a lot of reading on salmon farming over the past 6 months, as the tech consultantancy I work for has been investigating approaches within the industry, primarily in Norway. I look forward to reading your thesis :)

The feed conversion rates that Norway is achieving are, frankly, incredible. But the thing that troubles me the most is welfare. Sea lice remain a huge problem, and the mechanical and chemical treatments that are used hurt, damage and kill fish. There are also a shocking number of accidents that can kill millions if fish at a time - for example, chemical treatments gone wrong, or pens not deep enough so millions die from overheating. Then there is the welfare of cleaner fish, with reports of mortality rates over 40%.

Outside of Norway, I've seen some absolutely horrible cage conditions, with the netting completely fouled and the water thick with waste, and damaged, dead and malformed fish everywhere.

While there has been a lot of investment in offshore farming technology, the capex costs are huge, and it will still be some time before we see success at scale. It also comes with it's own risks - I think it was perhaps Havfarm that recently had an incident where the whole platform tipped to the side.

I also find the recent investments into land-based farming are troubling. For all the problems, at least with sea-based farming the fish live in part of their natural environment and have some semblance of space.

IIRC, for land-based farming to even be viable, they need something like 5x more biomass per cubic metre than sea-based farms. Thousands of fish are packed into a tiny area, and literally swim round in circles all day and night, never seeing anything other than the thousands of other fish that surround them, and if they're lucky the occasional glimpse of the side of the raceway.

How do you feel about welfare of farmed salmon, and in particular land-based farms?

Re: Popular seafood species in sharp decline around the world

#317

Post by jasonwatkinspdx » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 7:14 PM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #300

all_usernames wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the ~50% of Americans who choose not to vote, actually did, that would by definition change the politicians who are "able to win."

How many people aren't voting because they feel their vote doesn't count. I'm not a US citizen, but my wife is. She usually doesn't vote or only votes because I talk her into it. Her reasoning is that our state will be carried by a democrat anyways. It doesn't matter if they win by 51% or 100%. Between electoral college and first-past-the-post it's no wonder few people vote.

It's a sadly common view.

One thing I'd tell your wife is that down ticket races are very important, particularly state legislatures. I know my district will be carried by a dem, but that doesn't mean there aren't distinctions between which dem I want.

Re: Popular seafood species in sharp decline around the world

#318

Post by yisonPylkita » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 7:14 PM UTC

oftenwrong wrote: post #70

golergka wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why science fiction and not plain old fish farming?

And/or an international agreement to reduce fishing, and outlaw the import of fish caught outside the bounds of that agreement. Similar international agreements have worked relatively well to cut down on things like chemical weapons and anti-personnel mines.

I see little bit of difference between man killing weapons and food

Re: Popular seafood species in sharp decline around the world

#319

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 7:15 PM UTC

boo_boo wrote: post #112

wongarsu wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though we could feed many more people with current farming capacity if we ate all the corn we grow ourself instead of feeding it to cows that we eat. Meat production is incredibly inefficient. If we eventually manage to produce most of our meat demand from lab-grown meat this will likely free up enormous amounts of agriculture capacity.

In what world is lab-grown meat production more efficient than cattle farming?

[deleted]

Re: Popular seafood species in sharp decline around the world

#320

Post by boo_boo » Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 7:15 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #137

boo_boo wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what world is lab-grown meat production more efficient than cattle farming?

Given enough resources to refine the process and a few years, I don't see how in the long run it cant become more efficient than farming.

I don't buy it. You're comparing the energy inputs required to support large-scale tissue engineering operations with those needed for grazing cattle on pasture. It's not even close.