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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#311

Post by kortilla »

paxys wrote: post #46
nicholas73 wrote: post #30

I had middling grades and not much extracurricular padding in high school but 99th percentile SAT (no prep other than a practice test). If it weren't for the SAT I would have had worse college options. School felt like it provided nothing more than read and regurg and my background did not promote anything extra. So personally I do not see how this decision evens the playing field.

There are a lot more cases which are the exact opposite. People who have done well in school, extra curriculars and more, but are held back by a meaningless test.

Extra curriculars don’t mean shit realistically when it comes to predicting performance in college classes.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#312

Post by medee »

hooande wrote: post #299
rayiner wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I personally think that people pushing against standardized tests and for holistic admissions have good intentions and aren't trying to systemically ensure that all students at prestigious and elite universities in the US talk, think, and act like them, but I can't blame anyone for thinking so. I’m not sure I feel like giving the benefit of the doubt here. I think folks are acting in good faith, no doubt. But they…

some ideas are dangerous to society, flat out. ie, "the institution of slavery was good because it's part of my cultural heritage". University admissions are not just an issue of personal merit. It isn't something that you're owed because you did X, Y and Z. Colleges are trying to build a positive culture, just like startups, and that can involve rejecting skilled people with fringe beliefs. Not to mention, who wants…

Can you link the academic, journalist, politician, author, or executive who made the argument you're quoting, that slavery is good?

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#314

Post by sinkasapa »

Aaronstotle wrote: post #9

I took the SAT in high school and my scores discouraged me so much that I ended up not applying to any colleges. Worked out in the end because I went to a community college then transferred to Berkeley (which thankfully didn't require an SAT score)

My experience was much like your own except I never took the tests, which I'm sure I'd have done horribly at given my high school experience. I'm now getting a PhD in a really nice program so I feel good about the transfer route.

High school and college are so different, I've often wondered if transfering wouldn't be the best for most people. Then you can prove that you can succeed in college by going to college and learning what that means. I meet so many people that went straight from their high school to a competitive undergraduate institution and then came out the other end of it feeling like they never knew why they did what they did. In fact, many make it all the way through their PhD, only to think afterwards whether it was what they really wanted. They never worked at normal jobs or really left the citadel. 18 is so young to commit to all of this. I think the transfer route allows for more reflection and a far more realistic "model" for institutions to base projections of later success in a BA or BS program on.

Going to a community college and being in class with people who are middle aged and seeking new directions, refugees, people who made mistakes, and other young people who knew they wanted to do something but not what yet, was an invaluable part of my life and formed my understanding of what it means to seek out education. It is an insight many of my colleagues lack.

Though it doesn't really seem to be the point of the debate on exams, what really could stand to be improved is the extent to which undergraduates have the best long term life outcomes based on their educational experience and how the admissions process functions relative to this question.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#315

Post by woofie11 »

nottorp wrote: post #313

dealing a significant blow to the multibillion-dollar college admission testing industry. You mean those tests are privately done? It's not some standard high school end test administered by the state like the baccalaureate exam? Sheesh.

In between. They're run by not-for-profits.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#316

Post by nottorp »

woofie11 wrote: post #315
nottorp wrote: post #313

dealing a significant blow to the multibillion-dollar college admission testing industry. You mean those tests are privately done? It's not some standard high school end test administered by the state like the baccalaureate exam? Sheesh.

In between. They're run by not-for-profits.

Multi billion dollar not-for-profits? :)

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#317

Post by medee »

zamfi wrote: post #117
applecrazy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is likely a way to reduce asian american attendance at the top UC schools This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the Times article about this yesterday. I also applied to college last year, so I have a pretty recent knowledge of the process. I spent a grand total of $28 and managed to get a 99th percentile score on the SAT. To claim it’s impossible to score high on that test without money is absolutel…

> I spent a grand total of $28 and managed to get a 99th percentile score on the SAT. To claim it’s impossible to score high on that test without money is absolutely false. No one is claiming it's "impossible", and I don't want to minimize your experience -- 20 years ago, I also scored 99th percentile on the SAT with only $15 spent on practice books -- but it's absolutely not the norm. The reality is that a SAT score…

The SAT is intended as a metric for someone's future ability to achieve the things that constitute wealth, so it's good to hear they correlate. That's the entire purpose of it.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#318

Post by medee »

zamfi wrote: post #209
LanceH wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What criteria that you will use for admission won't correlate with wealth? Grades? Ability to complete college successfully?

I didn't say "use criteria that don't correlate with wealth". I'm just saying that wealth can be used to boost SAT scores. Selective colleges are looking for students who (a) meet a baseline for academic success there, and then (b) succeeded with respect to their opportunities, in ways that suggest future success is likely. Success looks different in different environments, and that includes different levels of wealt…

Wealth can be used to boost anything. The ability to boost things you want is what makes wealth wealth.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#319

Post by HPsquared »

gowld wrote: post #243
barry-cotter wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s called lowering your standards. It punishes the third who would have made it under the old system. Better to have a test. Doesn’t waste a year of the lives of the two thirds who drop out.

Me learning doesn't hurt you.

The most important benefit of a university degree is the credential itself, indicating personal characteristics of the graduate. Lowering standards directly hurts the value of said credential. Learning is a side-effect of the process.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#320

Post by LatteLazy »

When this subject comes up I always tell the same story.

When I entered university, the head of admissions had been forced to accept the job. He didn't want to be head of admissions (for physics, our subject).

He used the opportunity to do an experiment. Normally you need advanced Maths with a decent grade to get onto a physics degree. He abandoned that and admitted about 20 people without that. He also admitted people with lower grades than usual. Hs basically made offers to everyone who applied. So our first year class was almost twice the size it was meant to be.

He was my personal tutor and asked me to help host admissions lunches for prospective students, so the subject of admissions came up.

He laughed and said he admitted everyone because as far as he was concerned, if you were too dB to pass first year you'd be kicked out then and if not you deserved to be in second year whether you're grades at 18 were good or not.

Of the 20 people without maths, at least 15 failed or transfered to other subjects in year 1. But a few graduated.

So he gave them a chance and they took it.

I know the logistics make it impossible. But I actually think letting everyone who applies in and letting the end of term/semester/year exams decide who stays is much fairer than single tests or one off interviews of lists of (parentally supported) extra circular projects. Imagine if MIT or Harvard said "Everyone is welcome but only 10% of people pass the first year".

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