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Georgism

en.wikipedia.org

311–320 of 338 posts

Re: Georgism

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a theorem (called the "Henry George Theorem", but ironically discovered by Joseph Stiglitz in 1977) [1] that an LVT in the presence of democratic government results in an optimal tax rate and allocation of public/private benefits, and that an LVT can solely fund government. The idea behind the theorem is that all of these public benefits - open space, parks, museums and cultural attractions, mass transit, tr…

It sounds like the argument is that voters are rational and therefore must vote for the correct level of LVT. Doesn’t the evidence show that the ideal LVT rate is zero, since that’s what they have in fact enacted?

We’re not done with our stochastic gradient descent.

Re: Georgism

#312
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people don't really realize how much free money is creamed off by property owners and resource extractors. Not least because of their constant attempts to disguise what they do as productive. It's not like people are in a coffee shop and seeing "% of this product that goes to rent" built into the prices. They tend to assume that the price of the cup is basically the ingredients (which is why people b…

Rent is hardly "free money". Businesses and individuals pay rent in lieu of purchasing the property they use outright. There are times when it makes sense to own your own property and times when it makes sense to rent. If you did away with rent then everyone would be forced to buy property instead—which would be less flexible and not significantly cheaper. (Edit: Fixed typo.)

>Rent is hardly "free money".

What would you call money which accumulates in your bank account which you didn't have to work for?

(I could the portion of rent which would be left over after a rentier paying management fees here. Managing a property is work. Owning is not.)

Re: Georgism

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is proposing doing away with rent. They are proposing to pay landlords for what the landlords provide (some flexibility, maintenance, etc.) and to stop paying them for what they don’t provide (an area worth living in, nearby parks/subways, local job opportunities, restaurants, etc.)

The landlord provides a usable piece of land close to these amenities. They, along with others, contribute to making the area worth living in. They aren't being paid for the use of any nearby amenities, just for having the foresight to develop land in the correct location to synergize with the surrounding improvements. Is choosing the location to build not part of their contribution? And likewise for encouraging the…

>The landlord provides a usable piece of land

They neither made the land nor made it valuable, so they're not "providing" it in any meaningful sense. They're relinquishing their state provided entitlement to expel users of the land with state-backed violence. In exchange for resources.

Re: Georgism

#314
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The landlord provides a usable piece of land close to these amenities. They, along with others, contribute to making the area worth living in. They aren't being paid for the use of any nearby amenities, just for having the foresight to develop land in the correct location to synergize with the surrounding improvements. Is choosing the location to build not part of their contribution? And likewise for encouraging the…

>The landlord provides a usable piece of land They neither made the land nor made it valuable, so they're not "providing" it in any meaningful sense. They're relinquishing their state provided entitlement to expel users of the land with state-backed violence. In exchange for resources.

Ask an automaker: did they make the iron? No, it was a supernova 1B years ago.

Re: Georgism

#315
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They would (probably) make up their losses through rent increases and additional service charges - effectively passing on the tax to renters and leaseholders. Since no land can be created or destroyed, the supply-demand curve is fixed. This means that the land tax cannot be passed onto the renter, because the market conditions haven't changed. The rent is not calculated based on the landlord's costs plus some extra…

If the land tax is greater than what you can make renting, then that means your land is improperly priced. You can prove it by putting it on the market and no investor will buy it at that price because they would lose money and thus it would have to fall until the land tax is less than what they can make from rent. Now, if you abolish zoning or rezone places in addition to a land value tax, it could work as the inves…

Wouldn't the current zoning of the land be reflected in the valuation (and thus LVT paid)? For example, why would a land zoned for SFH be valued as if a 20 story apartment could be built on it? Ie. The zoning should put a cap on the valuation.

Re: Georgism

#316
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rent is hardly "free money". Businesses and individuals pay rent in lieu of purchasing the property they use outright. There are times when it makes sense to own your own property and times when it makes sense to rent. If you did away with rent then everyone would be forced to buy property instead—which would be less flexible and not significantly cheaper. (Edit: Fixed typo.)

>Rent is hardly "free money". What would you call money which accumulates in your bank account which you didn't have to work for? (I could the portion of rent which would be left over after a rentier paying management fees here. Managing a property is work. Owning is not.)

> … which you didn't have to work for?

To rent out property you must first own property. To own property you must buy property. Buying property requires resources. Accumulating enough resources to buy property requires a great deal of work, to say nothing of the effort which goes in to deciding which properties to buy or sell or the opportunity cost of deferring consumption. All of that work occurs before the first rent check is paid or any property management fees are accrued (assuming you hired someone else to manage the property).

The concept may seem alien to someone accustomed to a weekly or biweekly paycheck from their employer, but in many fields, including investment (in real estate or anything else), the majority of the work occurs long before any income is received. The income is no less earned merely because it does not occur in close proximity to the work.

Re: Georgism

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The landlord provides a usable piece of land close to these amenities. They, along with others, contribute to making the area worth living in. They aren't being paid for the use of any nearby amenities, just for having the foresight to develop land in the correct location to synergize with the surrounding improvements. Is choosing the location to build not part of their contribution? And likewise for encouraging the…

No, landlords do not provide land. The land was there long before the landlord and will be there long after the landlord is gone, too. The landlord, as evidenced by the fact that you are calling the land good or bad prior to having been developed by the landlord , should earn no profit based on that difference, because that difference would exist regardless of who – if anyone – is the landlord. If the landlord makes…

> No, landlords do not provide land.

They provide access to their land, which is the same thing. This debate is not about who (or what) created the physical dirt. It is about the economic value of the property, which only exists as a result of human action.

> as evidenced by the fact that you are calling the land good or bad prior to having been developed by the landlord

You misread. The land is known to be good or bad in retrospect. At the time it was developed that classification was only speculative. This particular landlord thought the land would be good and thus worth developing. Others disagreed and didn't bid as highly for it. The landlord is rewarded not for others' efforts but for the fact that they were right when they predicted that this would be a good location for their development.

> All the gains generated by improvements upon the land – or enhancements in the "usability" of the land – will be retained by the landlord.

To the best approximation either of us will be able to come up with that is 100% of the market value of the land. However, you are speaking in terms of ideals. In practice only the cost of building physical structures on the land will be counted as "improvement". There is no need to guess; this is the legal standard which is already applied in the rare situations where improvements must be valued separately from the land. However, it severely understates the property owners' contributions to the overall value.

> More importantly, it is a disincentive to speculating on that land (or withholding it from the market/withholding it from productive use).

The fact that you fail to see the economic value of speculation is a depressingly common failing among LVT supporters. Putting land to a lower-value use now prevents it from being put to a higher-value use later, which destroys wealth. Speculation holds the land ready for the higher-value use, which is why it is rewarded.

Here's a hypothetical example: Say there's a plot of land which could be used for either warehousing or family homes. If you simply put it up for auction right now for a term of perhaps 50 years you'll get $100M from the warehouse representatives or $80M from family home developers. Whichever way you go you'll be locked in to that use for at least 50 years. However, trends show that the warehouse industry is in a decline, whereas demand for family homes in that area will likely increase to $150M within ten years—meaning that if you just take the highest offer now then you will be losing out on $50M of value and those families won't have enough homes. In the best case there will be a significant cost incurred to demolish the warehouses and rebuild. The correct answer here is to speculate based on the trends that a higher-value use will come along and allow only short-term, non-destructive uses of the property in the interim rather than auctioning it off immediately. Or even leave it vacant for a few years if there are no such uses.

Re: Georgism

#318
post #296
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvotes are explicitly a tool for when people disagree. > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 Although in a practical sense that is bowing to the inevitable.

Not according to the HN rules

You might like to include a quote for that, because I've read the rules and I didn't see anything to suggest pg changed his stance.

Re: Georgism

#319
post #303
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question was more to do with how the improved value would scale for rural land that had a lot of use but can't generate as much income. Many rural businesses require a lot of land area but only produce a modest income which is possible under the current setup because land prices and taxes are low. There would have to be a lot of consideration given to the population density and the types of improvements made.

Rural land values will remain low until there is significant economic activity and particular demand for land IN THAT PLACE. To the extent that land, say, 10 or 20 miles away is just as suited for the user's purposes, the next piece of land that comes on the market is quite adequate, and the rural business can locate wherever, not pay a premium. I am reminded of a famous passage from Henry George's book "Progress and…

I'll admit that it is well written and makes for a compelling description of the growth of an urban center but it doesn't answer the questions it poses. It seems to say that the value of land and resources increases as the population does, this is true to some extent in that as demand increases for limited resources the value of those resources is driven higher. New goods and services are needed to support larger populations and more of them. A coal deposit may be worthless to a rancher since his concern is with the prairie that lays over top of it and he has neither the need nor the means to make use of it but if an urban center grows up beside that prairie then he may be coaxed into selling his land rights for a greater reward than his herd can provide. This is all perfectly sensible but doesn't say anything about how we should assign a fundamental value to those resources. Nor does it describe what should be done in a world in which that savannah is for the most part already settled and exploited or how we would replace an extant system.

It is not always true that a resource based business can relocate. They are often tied to the land they are on due to some local condition whether that is suitability for farming, grazing, the presence of natural deposits or features such as waterways. Only urban businesses that simply require square footage are purely fungible when it comes to location (although that often isn't entirely true since urban landscapes have their own happenstances that make certain businesses viable).

A lot of this seems to have the flavour of a just-so story that ignores a great deal of important ground truths.

Re: Georgism

#320
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Rent is hardly "free money". What would you call money which accumulates in your bank account which you didn't have to work for? (I could the portion of rent which would be left over after a rentier paying management fees here. Managing a property is work. Owning is not.)

> … which you didn't have to work for? To rent out property you must first own property. To own property you must buy property. Buying property requires resources. Accumulating enough resources to buy property requires a great deal of work, to say nothing of the effort which goes in to deciding which properties to buy or sell or the opportunity cost of deferring consumption. All of that work occurs before the first r…

The important parts of the discussion can be seen more clearly if we compare two different landlords rather than landlords vs non-landlords.

Then it should become obvious that some part of the profit is due to "work" i.e. investing money in an area by building upgrading, and some part is due to other people doing the same. So in a hot new area, a bunch of people moving in, opening hip restaurants, renovating old buildings, improving parks contributes to the landlords profit, because an empty lots value will rise as well.

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