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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#311

Post by RickJWagner »

threeseed wrote: post #228
roenxi wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…

How about one of the most similar countries to the US ? Australian deaths per million = 3.92 US deaths per million = 228.5 And the US number is likely to go to 500 in the next two months whilst in some Australia states it looks like COVID-19 is fully eradicated.

Per today's RealClearPolitics chart:

US 260 deaths per million

UK 499

France 404

Netherlands 322

Germany (Kudos!) 94.8

The US is not doing badly at all.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#312

Post by mellavora »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #142
sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

If it makes you feel any better, the lockdowns probably don't matter in the limit. 1) Individual behavior changed prior to the lockdowns (people don't want to die) 2) The government appears generally too incompetent to figure out how to lower R0 low enough to eradicate the virus 3) Since everyone can see that the govt is fucking this up, the marginal utility of hard lockdowns becomes less than the marginal pain. Some…

Except if you have children.

Because without a lockdown order you (may) need to send them to school.

(depends on legality of homeschool in your jurisdiction, most of Europe forbids it, also depends on your ability to provide it)

Or a job/employer who requires physical presence. Hello, Elon!

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#313

Post by dtwest »

CathedralBorrow wrote: post #298
dtwest wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you add together UK, Spain, and Italy they have more deaths than the US as a whole. https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data

[Removed due to lack of civility]

The lack of civility is pretty disappointing. I linked a bunch of data for you, ignore it if you wish.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#314

Post by ohashi »

rubidium wrote: post #274
techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Most people I’ve talked to pushing for government to reopen things have lost jobs and businesses... or are about to. Their basic survival needs are being threatened. Show a little more compassion. I recommend talking to some people instead of parroting the pictures you see in the news.

Many people who want a stay at home are at risk and don't want to die. Where is their compassion?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#315

Post by ginko »

101404 wrote: post #302
ginko wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English speaking, lots of space, common law..

Ah yes, because language is the most important reason to get an infectious disease... Am I here on HN or in r/worldnews?

I didn't talk about the probability to get COVID. Just the cultural similarities in general.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#316

Post by xienze »

CathedralBorrow wrote: post #292
dtwest wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has 342 COVID deaths per million. The US has 254 deaths per million. Germany is doing better, but the rest of Western Europe has much higher rates of death than the US. There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. If you have to bash Golden Corral to make your claim, you're probably a bit biased against Americans. That…

> There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. Do you mind showing your work? What do the statistics say about Europe vs. US? I see you mentioned Sweden and Germany but Europe has many more countries than those two.

> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Sort by deaths/1M. You’ll see the US doing better than UK, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc.

And in absolute terms, there’s still more cases and deaths in Europe as a whole (I find it funny that when it comes to GDP, we like to think of Europe as “United States of Europe”, but when talking about corona deaths, not so much).

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#317

Post by CathedralBorrow »

dtwest wrote: post #313
CathedralBorrow wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Removed due to lack of civility]

The lack of civility is pretty disappointing. I linked a bunch of data for you, ignore it if you wish.

You picked a handful of countries that fit your argument and called them Europe. Italy, Spain and UK aren't "Europe" just like California, NY and Florida aren't "The United States of America".

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#318

Post by greggyb »

joshuahughes wrote: post #221
Strilanc wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for example, deaths being down instead of going down. Get the active cases down to a manageable number, then switch to test and trace while gradually opening up as advocated for in The Hammer and the Dance [1]. 1: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-th...

> Get the active cases down to a manageable number Isn't this the problem, the world over? That no government has actually baked into their stay-at-home orders what the specific metric is that unlocks the lockdown. People with mouths to feed are justifiably terrified as they see lockdown stretching out in front of them with no clearly defined endpoint, knowing that the keys to that lockdown are held by politicians wh…

Pretty sure PA has defined thresholds in place.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#319

Post by xienze »

RickJWagner wrote: post #311
threeseed wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about one of the most similar countries to the US ? Australian deaths per million = 3.92 US deaths per million = 228.5 And the US number is likely to go to 500 in the next two months whilst in some Australia states it looks like COVID-19 is fully eradicated.

Per today's RealClearPolitics chart: US 260 deaths per million UK 499 France 404 Netherlands 322 Germany (Kudos!) 94.8 The US is not doing badly at all.

> The US is not doing badly at all.

Sadly people can’t look past the big absolute number of deaths and attach proper context to it. Like deaths per million, or ignoring that ~half of cases and deaths are restricted to a single metropolitan area.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#320

Post by CathedralBorrow »

xienze wrote: post #316
CathedralBorrow wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There seems to be a myth going around that Europe is handling this better than the US and the statistics don't really support that claim. Do you mind showing your work? What do the statistics say about Europe vs. US? I see you mentioned Sweden and Germany but Europe has many more countries than those two.

> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ Sort by deaths/1M. You’ll see the US doing better than UK, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc. And in absolute terms, there’s still more cases and deaths in Europe as a whole (I find it funny that when it comes to GDP, we like to think of Europe as “United States of Europe”, but when talking about corona deaths, not so much).

I'm not sure who the 'we' is in this context, so I can't address that point.

But my point was that picking a handful of countries and calling them Europe isn't very accurate at all.

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