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Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

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Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#311

Contrarian view: salary disclosure destroys value for people with negotiating skills, which are among the most valuable and useful skills of all. Disclosure advantages people who collude to apply political pressure (gang up) instead of appealing to principles or leveraging their skill and the value they bring. There is general social and economic harm to facilitating this behaviour. Disclosure lowers all boats in tha…

> people with negotiating skills, which are among the most valuable and useful skills of all.

Skills at zero-sum negotiation, like street-fighting skills, are among the most valuable and useful skills of all to those who possess them and to their allies. But skills at zero-sum negotiation by definition provide no value to society; the value they provide to their possessors is merely expropriated from someone else. This is a significant improvement over street-fighting skills, which provide negative value to society when exercised; a society with more street fights thereby becomes poorer and less happy.

> Disclosure advantages people who collude to apply political pressure (gang up) instead of appealing to principles or leveraging their skill and the value they bring.

This seems unlikely. Disclosure of the market-clearing price generally just reduces information asymmetry.

> Disclosure absolves managers of the need to negotiate effectively, which means you get managers who can't negotiate, which is the worst possible outcome for a company, since what is their job again?

Managers whose special skill is zero-sum negotiation will destroy your company. Managers need to be able to build cooperation and trust, which is the opposite.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#312
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US median family income was $60,336 in 2017, and $71,805 in California[1]. Junior developers in Silicon Valley have starting salaries around $110000, and I've heard for new college graduates getting up to $150K. I.e. twice median family income. You cannot have these high salaries without someone else getting shafted. There simply isn't enough money for everyone to be earning like this. Whether you consider inequality…

California is a big state. San Francisco median income is over $100,000, and you are still not going to be able to get your own apartment in that much. I'd argue that software developers are underpaid , considering large tech companies had been illegally colluding for years to restrict competition and keep wages low.

>median income is over $100,000, and you are still not going to be able to get your own apartment in that much.

Here's 100 apartments for under $2000/mo

https://www.apartments.com/san-francisco-ca/under-2000/

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#313
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all goods and services are more expensive, in my experience. I've been living in Cali (not bay area) for a couple of months now and the price of fresh fruit and veg in the shops is outrageous compared to UK. Bell peppers for example seem to cost two or three times as much, even though California is the top producing state in the US. Eating out in restaurants is definitely more expensive when you factor the tip in…

The only good that I've found to be noticeably cheaper is petrol. And that is because the vast majority of the price of petrol here in the UK is tax (in fact, multiple taxes). Successive UK governments have long used tax policy, on fuel and otherwise, to deter the use of wasteful, highly polluting vehicles. This has arguably been somewhat successful, though it will be a moot point within a generation in any case beca…

Not only that, but the US heavily subsidises fossil fuels.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for people with negotiating skills, which are among the most valuable and useful skills of all. You're confusing the skill of adversarial negotiation with cooperative negotiation. Cooperative negotiation is a critical business skill within the company. You are all on the same team and should have the same goals. Competitive negotiation is a good skill to have for some external negotiations. If anything, being good…

Negotiation is price discovery. It is literally the empirical process of discovering the clearing price of an agreement based on deductive reason instead of the blind-man's-bluff bullying of a haggle. People on the privileged end of a power imbalance always think they're being co-operative, because they necessarily know they have the power and choose whether or not to co-operate. Negotiation is the art of managing po…

That's what adversarial negotiation is yes.

But cooperative negotiation is when both parties have the same information and the same goals but different constraints. Or they have the same information but different goals.

Then you work together to come up with a plan that meets both needs, but most likely each side must compromise a bit.

That is the negotiation skill that is most important in business, and that is not the skill used when negotiating salaries in most cases.

Although as it turns out my last salary negotiation was in fact a cooperative negotiation, where I made an offer and was then told I asked too low and they offered me more than I asked for.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#315
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all goods and services are more expensive, in my experience. I've been living in Cali (not bay area) for a couple of months now and the price of fresh fruit and veg in the shops is outrageous compared to UK. Bell peppers for example seem to cost two or three times as much, even though California is the top producing state in the US. Eating out in restaurants is definitely more expensive when you factor the tip in…

Bell pepper pricing is just bizarre. Plenty other forms of produce are dirt cheap. You can eat fruits and salad every day and do it cheaper than any other country I've been to, as long as you don't insist on outliers like multi-colored bell peppers in your food. As for restaurants, technically fast food counts as restaurants. So I'd be surprised if the US wasn't one of the cheapest in the developed world there too. H…

True, fast food is probably a bit cheaper than the UK, especially when considering cost relative to average disposable income. I've found the prices of a lot of fruit and veg surprisingly high though, including things like oranges, onions and eggplants. Also, bread! Can't find a loaf less than $1.79 in the local Cali supermarkets but would be able to get one for 80p or less in the UK.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#316
I'm a mid-career software engineering manager in the Aerospace sector. Looking at the salaries on levels.fyi for companies like Uber (280k), I'm literally making less than half of that. Further, the most senior engineering managers I know never achieved anything near that level (probably closer to 175k).

Are there engineering positions in the aerospace sector that pay FAANG salaries?

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The approval rating doesn't seem to be much better than US Gov't[0]. Also, the US is also constantly protesting too. What do you think Black Lives Matter, the Google Walkout, the Amazon protests in NYC, the current and ongoing unrest surrounding ICE camps, and the teachers union strike in LA are? 0. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1600/congress-public.aspx

But the GP was trying to point out how France is much better than the US. With a better system, I would expect less protests and better approval ratings.

> I would expect less protests and better approval ratings.

You must not know the French very well, or you wouldn’t expect this. :)

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#318

In my experience https://www.levels.fyi provides much better information than random tweets. Not everyone works for a FAANG, but it's useful to know what their influence is in the market.

I wish there were just a little better filtering/sorting on their data. I want to know what people with my years of experience, in my metro area, in my specialization are making. You can kind of get some of that info, in certain forms. If their data (the data that is already publicly viewable on their website) were in a relational database I could write a query in about 60 seconds to pluck out what I want to know.

Sounds like the actual issue here is psychological (which, no judgements, is very common).

If you really wanted that data you could write (or have someone write if you prefer) a tool that pulls the data in to a relational database.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Negotiation is price discovery. It is literally the empirical process of discovering the clearing price of an agreement based on deductive reason instead of the blind-man's-bluff bullying of a haggle. People on the privileged end of a power imbalance always think they're being co-operative, because they necessarily know they have the power and choose whether or not to co-operate. Negotiation is the art of managing po…

That's what adversarial negotiation is yes. But cooperative negotiation is when both parties have the same information and the same goals but different constraints. Or they have the same information but different goals. Then you work together to come up with a plan that meets both needs, but most likely each side must compromise a bit. That is the negotiation skill that is most important in business, and that is not…

Not sure this view relates to any of the actual literature on negotiations outside of NVC (which is a cult), or any significant experience in negotiations. It is quite patronizing though. The game of putting a lack of virtuousness on others and transferring responsibility to others for the tone is not negotiation. I think psychologists call it gaslighting.

Telling the person you're negotiating with that they are just being confrontational is simple passive aggression.

After reading GTY, I recommend DeMesquita and Pfeffer, then, go back to Cialdini through a modern lens.

Re: Developer salary spreadsheet compiled from tweets

#320
post #311

Contrarian view: salary disclosure destroys value for people with negotiating skills, which are among the most valuable and useful skills of all. Disclosure advantages people who collude to apply political pressure (gang up) instead of appealing to principles or leveraging their skill and the value they bring. There is general social and economic harm to facilitating this behaviour. Disclosure lowers all boats in tha…

> people with negotiating skills, which are among the most valuable and useful skills of all. Skills at zero-sum negotiation, like street-fighting skills, are among the most valuable and useful skills of all to those who possess them and to their allies. But skills at zero-sum negotiation by definition provide no value to society; the value they provide to their possessors is merely expropriated from someone else. Th…

People who read about negotiation typically learn it's a positive sum process for creating and discovering value. People who have not often conflate haggling with negotiation. There is a critical theory that arbitrarily paints the process as "transactional," or "confrontational," but it is not something that survives and bears out in a competitive environment.

The managers I have seen who subscribe to the co-operation model tend to passively ride billions in valuation into the ground. The ones at successful companies are merely survivor bias from riding growth.

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