Education and Men without Work • Hacker News Board

Re: Education and Men without Work

#311

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy » Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 10:53 AM UTC

bostonvaulter2 wrote: post #257

L-four wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even worse it works both ways. Trying to get a job can stop your benefits and if the job doesn't work out you'll have a hard time getting your benefits back. Better to not try.

Wow those are absolutely terrible incentives that we've setup. I didn't realize that it was so bad.

Consider housing assistance programs. Using rough numbers. Say you make $25k/yr. And benefits are capped at 26k. You get 500/mo towards rent, or 6k/yr. Unless you get at least a 6k raise (add ~30% for taxes, 7.8k) you would be stupid to take a different job or even a pay raise.

Warning: There's probably a bunch of mathematical errors ahead.

This example does not take other assistance programs into account like snap/EBT, fuel assistance, cars for low income families, Medicaid benefits, etc. Snap/EBT can be $200+/mo iirc, fuel assistance 200-1k/yr, Medicaid for a family is $600+/mo. Assuming 100ebt/mo, 500 fuel/yr, 600/mo Medicaid that's an additional 8.9k.

6000 housing 1200 ebt 500 fuel 7200 Medicaid ~15k ×1.3 for taxes = 19.5k in benefits that cap if you make 1k more. 25+19.5=44.5k

The parent earning 25k would need to nearly double their income to fill the gap between left by benefits they no longer qualify for.

This didn't consider health care deductibles, dental (children get dental on Medicaid), or out of pocket expensive covered by Medicaid.

My health insurance plans max out of pocket is 8k. Add that.

Low income Families are also eligible for school lunch assistance, subsidized day care/after school programs.

School breakfast and lunch at my school was 5.5/day/180 days. ~1k.

Day care, summer programs,holiday programs, and after school programs can add 20k/yr.

Add another 29k. (37.7)

Which brings us to 78.2k

This parent who smartly took advantage of every opportunity they could recieves 200% their take home in assistance. Now after filing hundreds of forms to take advantage of these programs how much time do you think they'll have to spend towards tripling their income?

How much time will they even have to spend with their children between the constant battles with bureaucracies for benefits and their job to spend with their child?

Re: Education and Men without Work

#312

Post by wccrawford » Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 11:04 AM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #39

wccrawford wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. What you need to get your first programming job is some kind of evidence that you will be able to do the job. That might be a piece of paper from a college, but it could also be a portfolio, which is how many novice programmers get started. I actually believed what you're saying and paid for college for a couple years. When I got my first job, it turns out they didn't even care about my degree. All that m…

At the companies I have worked at or contracted with a college degree was the minimum requirement to get a foot in the door. Not necessarily a computer related degree. Any degree would do. It’s kind of silly but to me it seems a fact of life. Thats why I recommend to get a college degree. You can live without but life is much easier with.

I'm sure that's what they say, and for entry-level jobs it's probably mostly true, even.

But I guarantee that if a mid-level developer with lots of experience applies for a mid-level job, they'll look at them with or without a degree of any kind. And they won't even care for senior-level.

Just about everything on the "requirements" list of a job posting is negotiable. You just have to make up for it in some other way.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#313

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 11:56 AM UTC

spaced-out wrote: post #297

bumby wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but the trades typically aren’t pushed as a viable option like “higher status” paths. For decades now, I think the system has pushed the “need” to go to college, regardless of after effects (debt, job prospects etc)

It depends on what the community you're from defines as "high status". In some parts of the US, a tradesman who owns their own small business is far more respected than, say, a lawyer or a software engineer.

[deleted]

Re: Education and Men without Work

#314

Post by araneae » Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 12:37 PM UTC

huherto wrote: post #243

Mirioron wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the two causes listed in the article are actually the causes. I think both are yet another symptom of an underlying problem. I would argue that men doing worse in schooling is likely another symptom of the same issue. I think that the heart of the issue is that more men nowadays feel that they just don't matter. Not to society nor to anyone else. This leads to a situation where they will simply sacrific…

The dating dynamic changed too. As a man, you will be able to date if you are in the top 20% on height and general attractiveness. It wasn't always like that. In the recent past, you could have a girlfriend if you were average good looking and if you showed your worth. Good grades, good work prospects, etc. as long as you committed to a woman. That doesn't seem to work any more.

I've heard this oft repeated, but no evidence that dating overall works by the 80-20 rule except for Tinder, which hardly represents the dating world at large. It's perhaps true for casual sex, but for monogamy, which is still the most common dating pattern for the overwhelmingly majority of Western civilisation, the math just doesn't work out.

I can't help but feel that this belief is understandably motivated by a desire to see oneself as belonging to the bottom 80%, rather than belong to the bottom 20%, or worse.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#315

Post by leereeves » Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 12:38 PM UTC

cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #278

jbay808 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the parent meant otherwise. Or are you suggesting that Americans looking for unskilled factory work can just move to China and get a job? Aside from the cost and language barrier and family ties and other challenges of relocating, I think legal barriers alone (visa issues, work permits) would make that hard. It's already hard enough even for highly skilled professionals to get work permits in another co…

>are you suggesting that Americans looking for unskilled factory work can just move to China and get a job? Aside from the cost and language barrier and family ties and other challenges of relocating, I think legal barriers alone (visa issues, work permits) would make that hard. It's already hard enough even for highly skilled professionals to get work permits in another country. I'm saying this just to play devil's…

> what puts American's above picking up and doing their best to go there

I think many Americans would be willing to go, but I don't think China would allow that. They have a billion people already, the last thing they need or want is more labor.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#316

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 12:42 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #103

mythrwy wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be an unpopular opinion but the real issue (biologically) is that we don't need all the men. We only need a tiny percentage of men. So how societies sometimes dealt with this excess of men was to send a good number of them off to war. Also occupations used to be much more hazardous so many more die working. The days of bundling laggers up in a red coat and sending them off with a musket to make the queens em…

> we don't need all the men. We only need a tiny percentage of men. Relevant: A single male galapagos turtle sired 800 offspring, single-handedly (well, I guess it wasn't his hand) saving his species from extinction. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/world/americas/diego-tort... > Also occupations used to be much more hazardous so many more die working. Right. Females are precious (in the eyes of genetics) because t…

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Re: Education and Men without Work

#317

Post by thisisnico » Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 1:54 PM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #298

state_less wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What jobs still benefit from a man's physical strength anymore? Most things that need serious brawn use 'hydraulic muscles'? Soon women won't even ask us to twist the lid off jars anymore, there will be an iRobot for that. Where are men needed these days? We automated away manliness. It's worth less these days. The least valued men are now valued even less. Frankly, I think these disaffected men should go back to the…

Landscaper. Arborist. Construction. Orthopedist. Orderly. Bouncer. Soldier. Sailor.

Agreed. The entire construction and trade industry is huge and these people get paid ridiculous money because nobody wants to do these jobs. These are pretty manly jobs imo.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#318

Post by helen___keller » Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

allovernow wrote: post #198

helen___keller wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... what do you want? A government program to promote the joys of being a housewife? Do you really think that will move the needle on a systemic socioeconomic issue? Or would you rather see an authoritarian solution? I'm sure that will go over well. Keep in mind regardless of what you want as a woman, there's very real economic risk to being dependent on a man. Wanting to live a happy life as a housewife doesn't pu…

>So... what do you want? A government program to promote the joys of being a housewife? Do you really think that will move the needle on a systemic socioeconomic issue? Not at all. I would like to see policy makers back away from the nonsensical notion that lack of gender parity across industry is indicative of a broken society, and stop pushing young women aggressively into STEM and leadership roles and encouraging…

I'm not going to argue the side points because I doubt either of us have evidence

My post is just meant in support of GPs "that ship has sailed". STEM and leadership initiatives affect a tiny portion of the workforce by definition of how few women are in these roles, so it's clearly not bringing us back to the 1950s family unit. If you have another policy suggestion that could revert decades of socioeconomic change let me know

Re: Education and Men without Work

#319

Post by blaser-waffle » Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

thisisnico wrote: post #317

erikpukinskis wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Landscaper. Arborist. Construction. Orthopedist. Orderly. Bouncer. Soldier. Sailor.

Agreed. The entire construction and trade industry is huge and these people get paid ridiculous money because nobody wants to do these jobs. These are pretty manly jobs imo.

Construction and trades get paid ridiculous money because no one wants to do those jobs? Bollocks they do. Have you actually spent any time doing any of these things?

Most of the jobs that nobody wants are outsourced to illegal immigrant labor -- the housing boom of the 2000's was built on their backs and their hard word.

Most of the tradies are pulling $50-80k USD, and that's a lot of hard work. That's good money if you're 20 year old, but a Network Engineer with a CCNA, some kinda degree, and 5 years experience will pull $105k USD in a big US city, all while at an air-conditioned desk. And those are the well paid tradesworkers; basic labor and less in demand trades often pays like shit, and doesn't provide benefits.

I ain't saying you can't make good money doing it -- I knew a carpenter who was like #1 ranked on Angie's List and pulled well north of 6 figures -- but those are the exceptions.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#320

Post by kaibee » Tue, Jan 14, 2020, 2:54 PM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #112

roenxi wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a well written article for presenting facts. The lack of solutions is welcome to me; and I recall that the word 'crisis' is closer to meaning an unstable situation than an actual problem. The big open question here is what exactly should these people doing instead? 'Getting a job' is meaningless in itself - it isn't an end goal like 'secure my family's future'. If someone can survive comfortably without working…

> If someone can survive comfortably without working then that is exactly what they should be doing; work isn't especially fun unless someone is a bit lucky with what they enjoy. As someone planning on retiring early, I completely agree, but these men are dependent on government benefits, which, being taken from my paycheck, are lengthening the amount of time I have before I can retire.

> As someone planning on retiring early, I completely agree, but these men are dependent on government benefits, which, being taken from my paycheck, are lengthening the amount of time I have before I can retire.

I mean, you're not technically wrong, but that accounts for a minuscule amount of the excess value you create. Unless you're your own boss/running your own business (I'm assuming you're not since you're talking about your paycheck), most that excess value is taken by the company owners you're working for. But it doesn't show up on your paycheck, so I guess its out of mind, and its certainly easier/safer to blame those with less power than you.