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If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

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Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#311

Post by jrockway »

ganonm wrote: post #49

Around 2 years ago now, I took the plunge and bought myself an Ergodox EZ split island keyboard. Quite franky, it is the biggest quantum leap in the ergonomic experience of interacting with a computer I have seen since learning Vim. It is comfortable, effortless and fast. If you spend any significant time interacting with computers it is a complete no brainer to invest in optimising the IO channel between your brain…

I also have an Ergodox EZ. It is in fact revolutionary. Just being able to move keys around was so helpful for me. I have ({}) on jkl;, for example (shifted with a key below V...). Symbols are much more comfortable to type, and frequent operations like backspace and enter are on my pointer fingers or thumbs, so I'm not straining my pinky all day.

The Ergodox is not perfect, though. I think it has too many thumb keys (blindly copying Kinesis); they take up space but you can't really take advantage of them. Going from a staggered layout to ortholinear was quite the struggle for me. I endured and "got it", but I know a lot of people aren't going to have the patience.

Ultimately I like this article because it shows that hand-wired keyboards are quite practical. The author went overboard making it look nice, but you can build yourself a very nice keyboard with an Arduino, some switches, diodes, and wire, and a 3D printer. It won't look as nice, but you can get every single detail perfect.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#312

Post by leghifla »

ganonm wrote: post #98
cyphar wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be honest, I bought an Ergodox EZ a year or so ago and have consistently struggled to get comfortable using it. I have set up quite a few useful macros for programs I use daily like tmux as well as making it more vim-friendly (after many interations) and yet I still find it a serious chore to get past the fact that the keys feel un-naturally placed. Eventually I just give up and switch back to my laptop keyboard…

Yeah I found it very painful at first (like learning Vim but perhaps 5x times worse). I highly recommend using typing.io to get used to it. Since the training examples are source code, it ensures you get exposed to special characters, which is crucial if you're using your ergodox for programming. As you can see from the table on my GitHub page, progress was slow and took several weeks to reach baseline levels. This w…

I also switched to an Ergodox EZ (about 2 years ago), and the switch was very painful. At first, my speed was divided by 2. Using some typing practice, I managed to get to my usual speed on a normal keyboard and then thought: good, now I can definitely remove my old keyboard for good. My god this was wrong:

When typing what I saw before me, my brain could dedicate 100% to typing, and this was fine. But when programming, or even writing an email, part of my brain must concentrate on the content, and my typing what very laborious, maybe half of the normal speed, with many errors. This was taxing much of my mental energy. I kept on for a at least one month of typing practice before really making a permanent switch. It was hard, but I do not regret it at all.

Worth noting: I thinkered with the layout quite a bit. Even moving one special character somewhere else could take me a full day to adjust, and it was painful. So I finally settled on a good, but probably not optimal layout.

As some other comment above, I do not use common keys as layer keys (something I really wanted to use) because of delays. It is not much, but I experienced much more typing errors with this.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#313

Post by Symbiote »

sjy wrote: post #307
overcast wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the bed is contributing to spine health, what is a plain non-ergonomic keyboard contributing to? Carpal Tunnel?

I’ve always assumed that ergonomic beds and keyboards were equal parts snake oil, once you get past the obviously terrible bargain basement stuff. Do you think there’s a meaningful difference?

€10 gets you the cheap keyboard which leads to bad wrist positions, which can contribute to RSI and carpal tunnel.

€60-80 buys a mass-produced ergonomic design, like the Microsoft Ergonomic. These aren't adjustable or programmable, but it's easily a worthwhile improvement.

(Personally, I bought a mechanical keyboard because I don't like the low-travel laptop-style keys that are now standard on the MS Ergonomic and other similar "cheap" ergonomic keyboards.)

€100-150 buys a mass-produced, adjustable, reprogrammable (to some extent) keyboard, like a Kinesis Freestyle. This will help people with wrist issues, and will seem an obvious improvement to anyone who has a Microsoft Ergonomic. It also comes with mechanical keyswitches, which give more options in typing pressure.

€300 buys a sculpted ergonomic keyboard, like the Kinesis Advantage2. I've never used them, but people who have had wrist problems seem to swear by them. They look comfortable to use, if you know how to touch-type in the standard way.

Within this whole range are DIY and small-scale ergonomic keyboards. The price varies a lot depending whether it's self-assembled, self-printed/cut, etc (this obviously makes no difference to the effectiveness of the keyboard), the type of key switches chosen (this makes some difference, but will eventually lead to the kind of discussions one hears about 99.999999999% copper speaker cables where people are spending €2+ per switch) and the key caps (which is 99% appearance).

All of them are fully programmable, and there's potentially a lot of customization possible for tilting, positioning and so on.

The key switches and key caps are independent from whether the keyboard is ergonomic or not, so you can also spend €300+ on an extremely un-ergonomic keyboard with just 50 keys, a milled aluminium case, 8° tilt, no feet, €2 switches and incorrect Japanese key legends with colours taken from a manga. This should be considered art rather than a useful tool.

Adding the €150 Japanese key caps to a €120 kit-built ergonomic keyboard doesn't make it worse, but mine looks good enough with the plain €15 key caps.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#314

Post by tkloc »

ascar wrote: post #163
politelemon wrote: post #5

I'm simply a mechanical keyboard user, I have a few trusty Filcos that I use and I will sometimes buy a keycap set and wait 1 year for it[1]; I don't have the courage to build custom keyboards. However I do derive a vicarious pleasure looking at the build logs and end results shared by others, this post included. The two best places I've found to follow are the /r/mechanicalkeyboards[2] subreddit and the geekhack.org…

Maybe that's just me, but I get really annoyed by other people using (freakishly loud) mechanical keyboards in the office. It disrupts me from doing my work and some keyboards even penetrante my Bose QC ii with quiet music on...

I've banned such keyboards in my office (open space) and I've heard about some coworking places that banned them as well.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#315

Post by wyclif »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #299
tracker1 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of those situations where a store front or a friend with the item you're considering helps a lot. My favorite keyboard ever was a Model-M buckling spring keyboard... one year I broke a retainer clip for the spacebar while taking the key caps off to clean it... I decided to toss it, it was probably close to a decade old at that point. After that for about another decade, I bought a new keyboard each year, oft…

I have a Type M that I really must get a usb adaptor sorted out for. The Type M is the original IBM PC keyboard even better than the type F AT keyboards.

I have a Unicomp (which is based on the IBM Model M) Sun Unix Spacesaver USB keyboard: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA

It's great, and what's not to love if you're a POSIX guy? The Ctrl and Caps Lock keys are swapped, so the Ctrl key is on the home row like God intended. It has buckling spring, positive keyclick action and it's so good if you do a lot of keyboard input or use Vim and/or Emacs. The bottom plate is steel and it's heavy, it won't slide around on my desk.

Sure, for custom mechanical keyboard snobs, the keycaps aren't anything to write home about because sometimes the key characters aren't properly centered on the key surface. But my keycaps look OK, maybe I just happened to get a good one. And it doesn't bother me anyway because I never look at the keys when typing.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#316

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

StavrosK wrote: post #228
cellis wrote: post #132

10 months in with my Ultimate Hacker Keyboard, and I can confidently say that it brings me more joy than any other electronic device I have, with maybe the exception of my MBP. Before I had mild RSI here and there, but with the UHK I have zero pain, ever. But it did take a lot of learning. I spent about 3 months feeling like an idiot ( hitting keys that weren't there, forgetting which macro I'd mapped, typing an arro…

I'd love to get a split keyboard (especially one with a long cable so I can have the two halves shoulder-length apart), but 300 euros for a keyboard is WAAAY too much. Maybe I can somehow repurpose my old (or even current) Das keyboard into a split one.

Depending where you're coming from, 300Euros one time payment can be a steal compared to the time and money you could end up spending at the physiotherapist or chiropractor later in life.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here but I find it ironic that some well paid developers in the western world can justify dropping nearly $1000 every year on the latest handheld social media machine and consider that a worthy investment but when it comes to spending $300 once on something that can help prevent certain health conditions it suddenly can't be justified.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#317

Post by roel_v »

stevehawk wrote: post #77
overkalix wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$300 for the simplest keyboard...

complaining about $300 for a great keyboard is like complaining about a pricey bed. You use it for how many hours of the day if you're a programmer/engineer? Maybe it's worth spoiling yourself.

It's not spoiling yourself! What tradesman would buy a 15$ no brand cordless drill that they'll use dozens of times a day? Yes the cheapest one will spin the drill bit when you push the button, just like one 10 or 30 times more expensive - but just the better ergonomics makes it worth it. One aspect of being a professional is using proper tools.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#318

Post by roel_v »

ganonm wrote: post #49

Around 2 years ago now, I took the plunge and bought myself an Ergodox EZ split island keyboard. Quite franky, it is the biggest quantum leap in the ergonomic experience of interacting with a computer I have seen since learning Vim. It is comfortable, effortless and fast. If you spend any significant time interacting with computers it is a complete no brainer to invest in optimising the IO channel between your brain…

If only there was an Ergodox keycap set with all printed keys. I used an Ergodox EZ from when it was delivered after the crowdfunding campaign, right until the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard delivered on its campaign, and I stuck with the UHK mostly because all keys are labeled. I post this every time there is a thread about the Ergodox in the hope there will be keycap sets available some day...

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#319

Post by ansible »

Having the mouse in the right side of the keyboard puts it too far away.

My solution is to just mouse left-handed. As a right handed person, this does take some training, but it had been worth it in the long run.

That, plus an ergonomic keyboard solved most of my problems.

Re: If You Can't Buy the Keyboard You Want, Build It Instead

#320

Post by StavrosK »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #316
StavrosK wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to get a split keyboard (especially one with a long cable so I can have the two halves shoulder-length apart), but 300 euros for a keyboard is WAAAY too much. Maybe I can somehow repurpose my old (or even current) Das keyboard into a split one.

Depending where you're coming from, 300Euros one time payment can be a steal compared to the time and money you could end up spending at the physiotherapist or chiropractor later in life. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here but I find it ironic that some well paid developers in the western world can justify dropping nearly $1000 every year on the latest handheld social media machine and consider that a worthy inv…

And I find it ironic that some multibillionaires can justify buying a private jet but when it comes to buying good toothpaste they're suddenly "too poor".

I mean, assumptions are great, if you like building straw men. You know almost nothing about me, where I live and how much I make, or how much my phone costs (hint: under $200, once every two years).

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