Help me ask why you didn't just • Hacker News Board

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#311

Post by jrumbut » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:06 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #74

jrumbut wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've gone to this strategy of just not saying anything to avoid the problem, but I know I have benefitted immensely when others have dropped a pearl of wisdom straight from their fresh perspective so it saddens me. I think the key thing is to establish a supportive and collaborative environment where people feel safe enough to take a suggestion, knowing that their good faith effort over the last several months is val…

> I know I have benefitted immensely when others have dropped a pearl of wisdom straight from their fresh perspective Others who had worked with you extensively enough to have useful suggestions? Or random strangers off the street? I'm guessing it's the former, since you say: > I think the key thing is to establish a supportive and collaborative environment where people feel safe enough to take a suggestion But if al…

The author appears, to me, to be looking for a solution to a symptom of a problem rather than at the problem itself.

The original question posed is basically innocuous, and is only made a problem by the environment.

If one gets to the point of wondering how to offer help without setting off a spiral of despair and insecurity, there are deeper issues that need to be rooted out. I also claim, anecdotally, to have seen this sort of improvement happen and think it is generally a thing that is possible to do, and isn't some core part of the human condition (at least to the degree described in the article).

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#312

Post by at_a_remove » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

"For every problem there is a solution that is simple, neat — and wrong."

I start with the basic assumption that the person I am talking to has spent more time thinking about the problem than I have, which is a good one because I have just walked in. Therefore, if they did not do the Thing Which Is Obvious To Me, there must be a reason for it. I try to work out what that is and volunteer that as "I'm guessing $reason played a factor?"

Once you begin treating a person as someone you have something to learn something from, everything changes. It has been difficult to do this at times but it pays off so frequently I have little reason to recommend against it. If I have to ask someone on a help line for something, I will briefly explain myself and ask, "If you were me, what would you do?" I watch in amazement as someone who has been used as a speech-recognition front-end for a flowchart brings expertise, insight, and judgment to the situation.

The reason I do this is because I have been asked "why didn't you just ..." so often by people who are looking for the simple solution every time and exist in this constant welter of disappointment that the world might be slightly more complex than plugging things together tend to look at you in this resentful, exasperated manner as if you, personally, are withholding the Easy Way Out. I just do not want to do that to other people, having been on the receiving end of it myself so often.

You will run into people who have overlooked the obvious but that will be much rarer than you would imagine.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#313

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:09 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#314

Post by Kye » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

"Why didn't you use [proposed x]": high risk of seeming like the beginning of a tiring argument.

"I never thought about using [used y]": maybe not true, but sometimes it's more important to be humble than right. You invite them to explain why they used it, or ask what you would use instead.

The difference is the first comes with implications, while the latter beats implications over the head with a shovel and invites the askee to help you bury the body.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#315

Post by ISL » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

Whenever I write the word "just" in this context, I go back to see if the sentence can work (and be more-positive) without it. Most of the time, it can.

Somehow, it is helpful to write the "just" in order to get the sentence out, but it appears to be a temporary crutch to get the idea on paper. It is in the same category as, "it should be noted that" for me -- temporary scaffolding to get an idea on paper that can be later removed.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#316

Post by turc1656 » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

To avoid the ambiguity between the two primary intents, I always phrase the question as "I assume there was a reason you didn't [x]?" That puts any possible idiocy on my end for not immediately seeing the reason [x] wasn't done, while also giving them a chance to explain their thought process. And it also gives them credit through implication that I assume they thought of it.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#317

Post by stephen_g » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:17 PM UTC

tomxor wrote: post #228

carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

I've taken this a step further and often completely flip the wording to match the intended assumption which is that I am wrong : > I can't figure out the reason X doesn't work This is more often what I really mean, i.e there is some obvious solution (to me at least), but it's too obvious that they have likely already considered it and there is an issue with it... but they have been working on the problem longer than…

That just sounds passive aggressive to me. At the end of the day, I think it’s best to say what you mean directly, but still in the nicest way possible instead of trying to beat around the bush.

I’d go with “I think X might work better here - is there a reason you didn’t use it?” - because the answer might just be “oh, I didn’t think of that, cool, I’ll do it that way”. Whereas your question implies that they should have thought of it, which could be perceived as an underhanded insult if they didn’t.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#318

Post by stvrbbns » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

Why didn't you just make that a poll or survey?

But seriously, we all might learn how to phrase that question better if we knew which phrasing was generally preferred. I'd pick the last one myself: I probably would've tried using sshd here. Would that not work?

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#319

Post by pdonis » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #79

pdonis wrote: post #70

The article leaves out the most important question: why do you want to ask why they didn't just...? Even assuming that your intentions are entirely good and you totally intended only the author's response #2 and there was no element of response #1 at all (yes, you can see I'm skeptical of such claims--why will appear in a moment), the mere fact that you feel so compelled to ask why they didn't just... implies exactly…

Someone may be genuinely interested in feedback. In such cases, you want to be polite and respectful while still communicating that "This is my first thought." It gives both parties room to maneuver and save face. That framing makes it possible for them to reject the feedback without suggesting anything negative about you (like "No, you're the idiot here!"). You may be genuinely trying to understand it yourself, in w…

> Someone may be genuinely interested in feedback.

> You may be genuinely trying to understand it yourself

> if you have enough education/experience related to X, you may actually have a better answer at first glance. They might actually be interested in improving it and open to your suggestions

If any of these things are true, you will either know them well enough to know how to talk to them about it, or they will ask you explicitly for your input. In either case, you will not need to write an article asking the entire Internet for suggestions on how to talk to them.

In other words, I am not saying the things you describe cannot happen; I am saying that the fact that the author of this article had to write it at all means none of the things you describe are happening in the case he describes. If they were, he would know it and wouldn't have had to write the article in the first place.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#320

Post by eevilspock » Tue, Dec 03, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

He starts out presuming the problem is with the receiver or the words. He never considers it could actually be him in a way he doesn't yet perceive. This is evident as he doesn't even appear to get the gist of the mhoye blog post that triggered his question.

> "The more self-effacing I make it, the more I try to put in that I think the trouble is only in my own understanding, the more mocking and sarcastic it seems to me and the more likely I think it is to be misinterpreted."

His trying so hard to be "self-effacing" brings to mind Shakespeare's line, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

He considers the TEN different phrasings, yet never the straightforward and humble "Did you ever try sshd?". All ten reflect a patronizing attitude, the assumption that his immediate intuition is correct by default. The "naïvely" one comes off to me as obnoxiously pseudo-humble.

Complex wordings aren't random. They reflect something of the speaker's mind or attitude.

There is a good reason why many people love the way very young children put things so simply, without mask or artifice. WYSIWYG.

I believe the author, Mark, has good will. But good will is not the same as humility, nor does it give one self-awareness. Like a man who believes he isn't sexist because when he, a man who's never been in a woman's shoes, looks in the mirror he doesn't see any sexism.