To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#311

Post by azangru » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #270

azangru wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because the great people actively looking for jobs are likely to be bad at getting them. Why do you estimate it as "likely" (i.e. more probable than being average/good at getting the jobs)?

I assume they are mostly unrelated skills, my mental assumptions work something like: Suppose the top 10% of developers break down: 1/3 are noticeably worse than average and take 6 months to find a job, 1/3 are average and take 3 months to find a job, and 1/3 are above average and take 1 month to find a job. Each month 3000 people or 100 good 100 average and 100 bad start looking for work and the number of people loo…

Interesting! I've never before considered the dimension of time, which will lead to accumulation of brilliant interview flunkers.

The only assumption that remains to be tested then is that our current practices do not identify developers that belong to, say, top 10%.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#312

Post by C1sc0cat » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 4:27 PM UTC

crtlaltdel wrote: post #242

PeterStuer wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind a sidequestion: I have worked with and met with probably close to 100 start/scale-up companies in the software domain. I have not yet met a 'brogammer' shop. Some hipster dens, and yes, when the founder is a twenty something you will be hard pressed to find anyone over 30. So is this 'brogrammer frathouse' a regional thing? Or is it maybe a B2C thing as I mostly work with B2B companies?

every startup i’ve been involved with that is compromised of mostly first-time employees (either little work experience in general or no previous startup experience) has exhibited similar tendencies: 1. emphasis on drinking: “gotta have happy hour/get a keg” 2. off-site team building exercises that eat into personal/family time 3. disparaging competition, especially incumbents, often based on superficial things like…

Just a Keg Light weights - I recall our small core network team got through £400 of sake at a Christmas do and that was in the mid 80's

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

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Post by rhizome » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #48

m0zg wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> great at talking about themselves but >> were at best mediocre otherwise Happens all the time. There's simply no way to judge intrinsic motivation one may or may not have for the job, and without that even a smart person will do the bare minimum to not get fired. Which is not much at all, at most places.

There are more reasons than that to perform good, I guess that's what the classic "where do you see yourself in 5 years" is trying to judge. But in general this is a problem, yes. More importantly, the fact that FizzBuzz is used to the point of being a cliche is already admitting that given just a CV and a verbal interview we are unable to reliable judge if a person can even program at all.

I like how it's always that the hire is to blame for their skill level in the organization once they are hired. How come we don't ask whether companies know how to hire? Like, publicizing firing rates, turnover, that kind of thing.

I mean, I know why, but it's never a part of the rubric. "We stopped using talk interviews and our retention went way up. We used to see 1/3 of our hires quit within two months of their first salary review." This is probably a more reliable approach the more a company promotes from within, and my sense is that many-if-not-most startups do not.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#314

Post by romwell » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 4:33 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #310

romwell wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not the person who wrote the post, BUT they didn't mention anything of the unusual working hours or a pay cut (that they wouldn't take). And in any case, this is something that's discussed outright (hours) and while extending an offer (salary). Socialization outside of working hours is nobody's business, and reaches into illegal land (I don't care if one doesn't socialize with old/black/other gender people; but…

Startups pay less money in fact significantly less than established companies. That is known. Thirty five year olds rarely agree to work for the amount of money twenty year olds agree to work for. That is also known. This means that a thirty five year old going to a startup of twenty year olds is going to take a paycut. Startups push people to work more hours. Young people are OK with that because they do not have a…

See, the parent applied for this job, and never wrote they they weren't ok with working in a startup.

That's all that matters, and everything else you wrote is an attempt to justify discrimination by age.

Please reconsider your views.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#315

Post by rhizome » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 4:37 PM UTC

otaviokz wrote: post #178

stared wrote: post #7

As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to make a judgment.) Fortunately, many times (even for mid-size companies or research institutes) the hiring was less formal. For small startups, where it is informal, I didn't feel at a disadvantage. For big, I don't believe I can pass through the first filter. It…

As a slightly above average dev in London (and I mean it), I feel that for many big companies the interview process always achieve on thing: to avoid hiring anyone who could really transform it for the better.

In a big company, "transforming it for the better" is not a thing that one hire can do until years have passed. Sometimes it takes an entire career! So, at a big company interview, revolutionary attitudes are going to be known to be a pain in the ass. Not thought, known. A desire to fuck shit up "from the inside" grows to be less of a positive trait the larger and more inertial a company is.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#316

Post by romwell » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #296

nightcracker wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know they exist, and my comment was tongue in cheek, not to be taken literally. But in every joke there is a core of truth. People use language to disparage minorities or downplay the transgressions of the majority all the time. E.g. nationalist extremist violent acts are done by "lone wolfs" or "mentally ill" people while the exact same atrocities by other groups are done by "terrorists".

I’ve heard that lone wolf vs terrorist meme so many times, are there actually any studies on this, or even examples? I’m also not sure if being a “mentally ill” mass murderer is much better than a “terrorist” mass murderer.

If you are not sure, consider the same notions without mass murder attached to them.

They are socially (and legally) in different leagues.

>are there actually any studies on this, or even examples?

Yes, there specifically are[1][2][3][4][...].

I'd suggest [1] as a start, and then Google is your friend.

[1]https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/when-do-peo...

[2]https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-48477-001

[3]https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03050629.2018.15...

[4]https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/06/18/...

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

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Post by rhizome » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

core-questions wrote: post #28

stared wrote: post #7

As an Aspie/ADD, I have never passed any formal interview, even for an intern position (sic!). (You can compare and contrast it with my GitHub/Resume/blog to make a judgment.) Fortunately, many times (even for mid-size companies or research institutes) the hiring was less formal. For small startups, where it is informal, I didn't feel at a disadvantage. For big, I don't believe I can pass through the first filter. It…

> I've heard it so many times about people interviewing others, as "(s)he is smart, passed all test, but weird, I don't like to work with her/him". At this point, it is systemic discrimination. No, that's a misnomer. Systematic discrimination implies the system itself codifies this behaviour - but instead, what is codified is _team fit_, which is often based heavily on intuition. Humans are capable of being good judg…

>No, that's a misnomer. Systematic discrimination implies the system itself codifies this behaviour

I hate to point this out when you've written a substantial comment like this, but the comment you're replying to said "systemic," not "systematic," and the difference between them isn't just a semantic quibble.

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

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Post by traderjane » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

BurritoAlPastor wrote: post #307

dannypgh wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Often it seems to me that there are plenty of other motivations to run a company. The founders hire people who they like to hang out with, maybe same hobbies etc. There are laws against employment discrimination, and I suggest to you most people aiming for "people who they like to hang out with with" will result in an outcome, intentional or not, of illegal discrimination.

If you look at the set of all the people in the world you like to hang out with, and somehow, incidentally, nobody from a discrimination-protected group is in that set... I have some bad news for you about your personal biases.

Does it mean they grew up in a different, more homogenous region than you? If you were never really exposed to black people, doesn’t that change a person? Shouldn’t we have sympathy for those who are underexperienced with blacks and other minorities?

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#319

Post by traderjane » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

Leherenn wrote: post #94

icotyl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the opposite experience. I don't have Asperger's or ADD, but I'm shy and struggle with eye contact and small talk. I interviewed at about ten startups, and despite doing well on the technical questions, I got rejected every time. I began to suspect it was because of "culture fit" -- will this 35 year old introvert fit in at our frat house/office? I was getting pretty depressed after all that rejection, but I go…

I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit". You describe it yourself as a frat house, which, I assume from the rest of your post, is not what you want. Work is not always only about output and skills, especially in a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues. It says nothing about your skills, just that both sides would probably be miserable in case you were hired…

If it’s a frathouse with 20 somethings who don’t have enough time except with each other, how does sexuality come into play? Not at all?

Re: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews

#320

Post by kitsunesoba » Mon, Oct 21, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

kls wrote: post #292

Leherenn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand this dismissing about "culture fit". You describe it yourself as a frat house, which, I assume from the rest of your post, is not what you want. Work is not always only about output and skills, especially in a small company run by 20-something whose only social life is their colleagues. It says nothing about your skills, just that both sides would probably be miserable in case you were hired…

As a person who was a young developer in the .com boom and a middle-age programmer now, I think youth puts too much focus on this and lack experience in this area. I think there is a general opinion that the old guys will ruin everything and serious up the environment. When my experience has been the exact opposite, the old guys usually bring in some good practices the young guys find are good ideas but they really d…

Indeed it is not true that all older engineers will cause this culture clash, but when it happens it’s dramatic and I think that’s what prompts cautiousness when hiring these individuals.

It’s an anecdote so take it with a grain of salt, but I’ve had an experience like this with at least a couple of former colleagues on the higher end of the team’s age distribution — they were great people, but none of the younger team members knew how to relate with them which made day to day interactions a lot more awkward than they would have been otherwise.

Of course, it could be argued that the awkwardness could’ve been avoided had the company started off with a wider age range, but then you run into the issue of attracting older candidates, which can be difficult given the volatility and reduced concrete compensation associated with early stage startups.