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The China Cultural Clash

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Re: The China Cultural Clash

#311

Post by UIZealot »

throwaway_bad wrote: post #303
UIZealot wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Between harmony and human rights, it's absolutely clear to a westerner which one is more important. What have been the human rights violations from the government, aside from responses to protester violence? Labeling yourself "human rights" does not automatically make you right. > It's possible to only say true things and still be biased. This is probably the most common way of spinning a story for "fake news". Cer…

I am not immune to fake news. I think that's why I appreciated your original response so much. I wanted to see how others are interpreting the same events. Human rights violation by china are well documented. You can look them up yourself assuming you have access to an uncensored internet. I cited disappearing people as the example that I thought was most relevant for the extradition bill. The triad attacks are defin…

Likewise, I appreciate your honesty and candor.

> Human rights violation by china are well documented.

That may have been the case. But we are talking about human rights violations by the Hong Kong government here, and I don't think you have a case here.

> The triad attacks are definitely real

We can certainly demand an independent investigation into this once the violence and destruction stops.

> Westerners consider what you call "violence and destruction" to be a fair price to pay to have rights guaranteed.

I believe the bill was quickly suspended after initial peaceful protests. There's no reason to believe the bill wouldn't be withdrawn if peaceful protests persisted. That's why I believe the violence has been unnecessary and may have even been harmful to the cause.

FWIW, I oppose the bill and support the peaceful protests against the bill.

> shining laser in eyes is laughably tamed

Have you tried that on yourself? Maybe you'll have more empathy for the policy if you had. It looks deceptively benign but is in fact incredibly aggressive.

> I do understand that some people just want to go on with their daily lives ... just very different from western thought.

I doubt it's very different in the west.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#312

Post by paxys »

lwansbrough wrote: post #214
paxys wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's the alternative? Don't speak out about real issues because you don't want to piss off Chinese citizens and make them think you are the enemy?

Well, your issue isn't actually with the people with China. Therefore, it would be wise to frame the argument around Xi and the CCP, as opposed to "China." It's like when radicals in the middle east yell "death to America" they're not talking about the people, but instead "the system."

The entire NBA fiasco started because of a 7-word tweet - "Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong." China wasn't even directly mentioned. This is about as mild as you can get.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#313

Post by confusedhnguy2 »

zarro wrote: post #301
confusedhnguy2 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Westerners act like they really care about us and we are some kids who refuse to take their meds. Some of you genuinely care about us and I can appreciate that, but as a whole, I find the Westerners' altitude towards us disturbing. Reasons: 1. Knows very little about China except from cherry-picked news by Western media, but pretending to know everything about us, better than us. This makes many of your arguments bas…

This is the best response that I have gotten which I think a majority of Chinese people agree with and epitomizes my exact point that it is counterproductive to villainize one another. Instead of letting contention escalate to coercion and violence we should focus on setting mutually agreeable rules of economic competition, and let whichever system is more successful in producing value succeed. Important side point r…

The beauty about villainize one another is that it is simple. No need to think or do research, just fallback to knee-jerk reactions. And it makes one feel superior when they think they are the good people that fights the evil.

It's human nature and nothing you or me can do will change it. (I mean, the need for antagonists is embedded into our brains, just look at the popular movies)

Yes, I totally agree that some of us did stole your stuff, and the fact that you also did it in the past doesn't justify our actions. Lack of innovation is indeed a big problem in China and it absolutely should not be mitigated by stealing others' innovations. Healthy, fair competition is what moves things forward and creates value. But many Westerners are acting like they have the moral high ground. Don't you love your bible? How about that story about throwing stones at some poor girl?

Like I said, I know many of you have good intentions (except the ones who want to see a war in China). But the gap between our cultures is way too big, misunderstandings are inevitable and you can't expect the average person to learn all the differences.

You say our government is totalitarianism and it's bad. I say we treat the government as our parents and it's part of our multi-thousand year culture.

You say democracy is the only right choice. I say not everyone has enough knowledge to make informed decisions and that's why you have a madman president.

You say the CCP is an evil dictatorship that uses the book 1984 as a manual. I say I am very thankful for their tremendous efforts in maintaining a stable, independent country, even if we are surrounded by hostile countries (Yes, Russia is a potential enemy and we all know it. No, North Korea is not our puppet state.)

Very few of us can stay calm and agree to disagree, the rest writes the history.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#314

Post by swsieber »

throwawy4trueth wrote: post #309
plandis wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Mind your own business” the Chinese say while simultaneously getting upset when an individual in their individual capacity says something on an American website banned in China. Is irony not a thing in China?

That's not valid argument. The ban is a response to an individual not minding his business but China business. If the indificual say something about himself, your are right. Can you get it?

But the Chinese government only gets upset if some says something they don't like. If they say something positive, there's no issue. And when they get upset, they lash out.

Tyrant, bully, abusive - there are many terms for that sort of relationship. Is it any wonder that someone is upset about it, and advocating that the U.S. gets out of it?

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#315

Post by downrightmike »

baby wrote: post #78

I have an interesting take on this, from knowing a bit about Chinese culture (lived there) and for having friends and coworkers who are Chinese. Culture in China is about unity. If you look at Chinese history, and if you watch Chinese movies, this is a recurrent theme. Unification through blood and war. This is the goal and China will get stronger and more stable over time. At what cost? Tiananmen, xinjiang, hk, the…

If you go back over the last few thousand years, you'll see that every dynasty was overthrown by peasant revolt. It is just a matter of time.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#316

Post by dang »

Qub3d wrote: post #248
throwawy4trueth wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is quite simple: mind your own business. Let time and history to tell. China never send army or CIA to overthrow other countries. If the other side don't want to do the business that's fine. Westerner like to spread their values, often with force.

Given the name, age, and almost hilariously stereotypical grammatical errors, I can only assume you are at best a troll and at worst some sort of astroturfer or Chinese national. China has absolutely used state power to affect foreign states. Consider all the infrastructure projects funded by Chinese money in Africa[0] and consider what the ultimate motive is. [0]: https://qz.com/africa/1326618/china-is-building-expe…

Please read the site guidelines. Your comment has broken them badly: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> at worst some sort of astroturfer or Chinese national

That's a slur. Did you really mean it that way? Chinese people, and people with a China-related background, are welcome here. What sort of site would this be if they weren't?

People whose first language isn't English are welcome here too. Please don't use HN to attack people who are foreign to you. It's deeply against the values we're trying to practice here.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#317

Post by golemiprague »

plandis wrote: post #254
LocalH wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no effective difference between private and public deplatforming. Freedom of expression is harmed by both.

Perhaps but the harm is vastly different in scale. Private banning of speech doesn’t prevent the individual from stating those claims elsewhere. Government mandated banning of speech does prevent that speech from being used elsewhere.

Those laws need to be changed because those platforms are the de facto town square and they are a public space. The fact that this public space is maintained by a company is not different a a town square maintained by a private contractor. The virtual public space didn't exist until social networks but now it does so it needs to be treated like any other public space, doesn't matter that some private company facilitate it.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#318

Post by cromwellian »

throwawy4trueth wrote: post #307
surge wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As China has become increasingly nationalistic, xenophobic, etc recently (foreigners in China are seeing more and more hostility and visits by cops, and minders that follow them and keep tabs) they've been taking their business opportunities to Vietnam, etc. Apple should work to do the same.

That's true and unfortunate. I wish that didn't happen. But you don't know the root cause: Westerner who are mostly activists with irrational feeling that they have better "value" and interpret the Chinese behaviour in their own cultish belief systme caused the reaction which is also irrational. Good part is (ironically) China won't lost control because of its one party system. It's also powerful enougth that US and…

So if a Westerner to criticize anything in China that needs improvement, they need the cops and minders to follow them around? Even stuff that Chinese themselves criticize, like the baby formula scandal, if done by a Westerner, sets off 'glass heart' feelings.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#319

Post by mlyle »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #267
adventured wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a lot of examples of that occurring in the past decade. There's no need to speculate (the "you'll see" part). The op's statement was obviously correct about speed of action. In the US protests about something tend to build and stretch out over many days or weeks more typically. See the prominent example of the famous Chick-fil-A protest (which went on for months). It took Walmart a month to take measures rece…

This has already been going on for months, though. It's gotta be front-of-mind over there. The image of English-speaking westerners talking about "liberate hong kong" is a bit triggering for the average Chinese person, due to Hong Kong and England's history. It must be incredibly easy for CCTV to point at that and say that it's just the western imperialists trying to take HK away.

This is a strawman. Morey did not tweet anything containing "liberate Hong Kong". (That was subsequent, different events, by different people).

China promised 50 years of "one country, two systems"-- people in Hong Kong want to cash that check.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#320

Post by kapuasuite »

stebann wrote: post #284
smackay wrote: post #34

It is rather interesting to see Stratechery talk about values when normally the articles are about markets and capital. I don't how the latter, since they are inherently amoral, can accommodate values either. As a result the argument seemed a little forced. Surely if China is an important market for western companies then the rules of that market apply. It is only to be expected that in a global market there must a c…

That is exactly what I try to point out, but "freedom" cowboys don't care about other perspectives about Freedom. And they actually don't understand it and then they forget every atrocity their country has committed and is committing right now, including trying to overthrow legitimate governments and destabilize other countries economies to gain competitive advantage. Moral and Ethics, I don't see them anywhere.

I like how you threw in the whataboutism at the end, as if the West has no moral right to criticize China because of the long list of atrocities they’ve committed. Well played.

Here’s the deal - China is a totalitarian state bent on reclaiming what they see as their rightful place in the world. They will stomp on anyone they have to, friend or enemy, real or imagined, foreign or domestic, to make that happen.

At the same time, the rest of the world, including the West and its allies, have the ability to force China to abide by international norms and the right to defend themselves from China’s aggression.

You may think it hypocritical, but from where I’m sitting the US and its allies have the moral high ground in this instance and no amount of bleating about everyone’s historical crimes is going to distract everyone from the realities of China’s ongoing atrocities against its own people, it’s Nine Dash Line, it’s blatant political and economic attacks on the free world and its disrespect for and undermining of centuries of international laws and norms.

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