Hi
Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT
311–320 of 357 posts
Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT
#312Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Minsky [...] had a sexual encounter with a girl Can you please provide a reliable source for this claim? Last time I checked there is at least one witnessing of him turned down offering of sexual favours in that Epstein case context, and none of the opposite.
He is named in the court deposition by the witness.
You should really read that court deposition. I did and it is not un-ambiguous on the matter, there is plenty of room left to argue there that Minsky never had sex with the girl and one eyewitness who claims he turned her down.
Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT
#313Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "Epstein's island wasn't some stereotypical villain lair where anyone who steps foot on it must be up to no good." This isn't applicable to the specific case of Minsky, but I think that ambiguity evaporates after Epstein's first conviction.
Epstein's first conviction was in 2008. The allegation about Minksky stems from a single line in a gigantic recently published deposition ( https://twitter.com/_cryptome_/status/1159946492871938048 ), covering events long before 2008. Minsky was included in a list of people that Epstein's assistant asked one of his victims to have sex with (the deposition didn't ask if sex actually occurred). In the deposition the vi…
https://slate.com/technology/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-science...
> Epstein’s former neighbor, the psychologist and computer scientist Roger Schank, describes another such event that he attended: a meeting of artificial-intelligence experts, organized by Marvin Minsky and held on Epstein’s island in April 2002. “Epstein walks into the conference with two girls on his arm,” said Schank. The scientists were holding their discussions in a small room, and as they talked, “[Epstein] was in the back, on a couch, hugging and kissing these girls.”
Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT
#314Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do you reconcile (a) your implication that Stallman is flip-flopping due to public pressure with (b) Stallman's lifetime as a Diogenean polemic who has been shown to stand by his beliefs, no matter how unpopular?
He's not in jail, he can continue on twitter all he wants.
If that's supposed to somehow make sense as a reply to what I wrote, you're going to have to explain it.
Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT
#315Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do you reconcile (a) your implication that Stallman is flip-flopping due to public pressure with (b) Stallman's lifetime as a Diogenean polemic who has been shown to stand by his beliefs, no matter how unpopular?
There's a difference between "unpopular but everyone knows I'm quirky" and "this might be an existential threat to my ability to keep running the FSF etc.".
Two things:
1. Stallman already has a lifetime of of examples of somewhat poor leadership within the GNU project, resulting in decisions that have compromised GNU and FSF's trajectory (compared to their potential), so once again, these are not new circumstances
2. How is Stallman doing FSF under threat here?
Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT
#316Earlier quoted context omitted.
I genuinely don't think that was a novel argument to his interlocutors. I think they'd thought of that, and I think they have good counterarguments. (I'd like to not get into arguing about Minsky's own actions or about mitigating factors in sexual assault in this particular thread. 'esotericn is talking about what is reasonable to discuss or not in which circumstances, not about the merits of the argument in question…
So what you are saying, after a rather long discussion, is that you can't point a fault in what Stallman wrote, but you think that those who were outraged must have had a good argument to be so. And you agree with them despite not knowing what that argument was. Is that correct?
That's a deliberate misreading of me. I can find concrete fault in what he wrote. To demonstrate the fault would require engaging in a discussion on the merits of his argument, which I have no interest in doing. (I'm on the mailing list, if I had an interest in doing so, I would have replied there, where it's productive, not here.)
Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT
#317Earlier quoted context omitted.
We shall not talk about it due to the connotations of its name, but rest assured those responsible have been liquidated.
I'm pretty sure it was intended in the sense of "to finger a suspect" (cf git blame) rather than anything vulgar. I think the tendency to take anything, in nearly any context, that could even maybe be vulgar, as vulgar 100% of the time, is actually relatively recent.
IIRC - it's from the yellow pages "let your fingers do the walking", although I could have made up that association.
Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT
#318I think we should be more worried about the control that media (and especially clickbait-worthy online media) can exert over our lives. It's clear to anyone who has done their research, that his quotes were taken out of context or mis-characterised to create a specific narrative meant to fuel anger and drive visitors to the 'news' websites. It's a real shame that we can no longer discuss certain topics without fear o…
His personal website re-states this opinion clearly (see links in other comments). There was nothing mischaracterised or out of context about this. This time he merely made his opinion more visible, and it ended up being the last straw.
Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT
#319Related earlier post: > I want to respond to the misleading media coverage of messages I posted about Marvin Minsky's association with Jeffrey Epstein. The coverage totally mischaracterised my statements. > Headlines say that I defended Epstein. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've called him a "serial rapist", and said he deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him — and other inac…
I didn’t follow the story. Was Stallman taken out of context? Anyway, he probably should have know better than to weigh in. One’s well thought out response and subtle points can often turn out to have a few holes. In fact... “If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged”
> Anyway, he probably should have know better than to weigh in.
That's the problem with the internet today. It's too toxic to hold any meaningful public discussion.
I'd bet that RMS was open to discussing the point he expressed. Because that's what you do on an old-fashioned mailing list. But apparently he got no response to his email. Instead Selam jumped the gun and started, essentially, a shaming campaign on medium.
This kind of attitude essentially hushes people who can actually hold a meaningful online discussion, and perhaps revising their starting opinions after one. Instead we only get to hear the voices of people that are righteous about their opinions—be right or wrong.
Internet has transformed from an open forum to a shouting contest; if you can't join a big enough shouting group, no need to waste your energy participating.
Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT
#320Worth noting that (as far as I know) Stallman was not a paid employee of MIT, certainly not a professor or anything. He had an office because, I believe, Gerry Sussman (and probably others) thought he should have an office. He's listed as a "visiting scientist" on CSAIL's page: https://www.csail.mit.edu/person/richard-stallman He's around on the mailing list (mostly to reply to every mention of software with a questi…
> (The cynic in me believes he's resigning because it's far more newsworthy to say "resigned from MIT" instead of "resigned from the FSF," especially given all the news headlines calling him "Famous MIT Computer Scientist," and it also has far less of an impact on his life or his goals than resigning from the FSF would.)
If Stallman cared about his reputation or being considered famous his entire life would have been quite different.