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Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#311

Post by SkyBelow »

dpcan wrote: post #234
SkyBelow wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not seeing how this is any different than Pokemon cards where I saw the same behavior in kids back then. Is it because these days companies have thrown far more psychology at optimizing it?

2 wrongs don't make a right. It's not okay to say "something has been done before" or "this is like that". As human beings, we are learning what types of things are destructive. When we learn about these problems, it's not healthy to justify doing another thing wrong because we happened to live through doing it wrong before. For example, people who say "I didn't wear a helmet when I was a kid" are being irresponsible…

>2 wrongs don't make a right.

I agree. But if you look at one of those wrongs and don't actually think it is wrong, then it may mean the other wrong isn't wrong as well.

My point is NOT: 1: TCG booster packs are like loot boxes. C: Therefore people should have a problem with loot boxes.

My point is: 1: TCG booster packs are like loot boxes. 2: People don't have a problem with TCG booster packs. C: Therefore people should have a problem with loot boxes.

The inclusion of the second idea is very important.

Also, as someone else pointed out in a different comment threat, the problem seems to be with the way virtual currency is used. In this case, that is a chance that has no analogy with TCG booster packs, and as such my argument doesn't apply.

>For example, people who say "I didn't wear a helmet when I was a kid" are being irresponsible. No, you didn't. But thankfully, science, data, and time have shown us that wearing a helmet makes far more sense for our health and safety, so that's what we do now. We learn, we change, we adapt. It's part of the process.

In this case, what is being said is that you should've wore an helmet when you were a kid, but we can't go back and change the past. Imagine if science instead said that in the past people shouldn't have worn helmets but kids these days should. I would definitely want more information. But in this case, both past and present are being condemned so there is consistency.

>So, Pokemon, and Baseball cards, etc, were all gambling.

They are still a think, but I don't see people calling them gambling even today. Thus my question about a potential lack of consistency.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#312

Post by moate »

bart_spoon wrote: post #306
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can sell my magic cards for real world money And you can sell CS:Go and TF2 items for Steam credit. I'm not convinced this makes anything better. A slot machine isn't the only way to get money, but I still don't think we should market slot machines to children. I think a lot of the people who dislike "lootboxes", but grew up with collectible card games like Magic, try to rationalize why one is okay and the other…

There are definite parallels between something like MtG and lootboxes, but I think the barrier for purchase is much lower with lootboxes. A physical product like MtG cards must be purchased at a store, which will have limited quantities. It requires effort and occasionally timing to actually obtain the items. Even in our modern world of online shopping, there is typically a wait time between the impulse to buy and th…

While I agree with you that loot machines are worse because they're always available and hyper-immediate, we know that gambling addiction is a thing, and CCG cards fit the pattern. I mean to play a slot machine, people used to have to travel all the way to casinos, convert their money to coins, and then play the slots. The addicts still did it.

The problem exists in all of them, we're just talking about the speed of delivery and how it makes somethings worse-bad instead of just bad.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#313

Post by scarface74 »

And this is the unsung hero of Apple's new Apple Arcade subscription -- 100 games, no loot boxes, pay to win crap. You can safely pay $4.99 and the entire family can have access to the games without having to worry about this crap or advertising.

It's a win for everyone.

Publishers are reportedly getting paid up front so they don't have to worry about not making their money back on their investments.

Consumers avoid the above mention pitfalls of modern mobile gaming.

Apple is "commoditizing its complements" and making iOS/MacOS/iPadOS/tvOS a more attractive platform for casual gaming.

EDIT: Corrected the price is $4.99 not $5.99.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#314

Post by nacs »

scarface74 wrote: post #313

And this is the unsung hero of Apple's new Apple Arcade subscription -- 100 games, no loot boxes, pay to win crap. You can safely pay $4.99 and the entire family can have access to the games without having to worry about this crap or advertising. It's a win for everyone. Publishers are reportedly getting paid up front so they don't have to worry about not making their money back on their investments. Consumers avoid…

> You can safely pay $5.99

Minor correction: It's $4.99 per month

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#315

Post by save_ferris »

tripzilch wrote: post #302
save_ferris wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and I grew up in very, very different worlds then. Most things that made kids in my community were purely consumerist. Air Jordans, Pokémon cards, brand name clothes like hollister and AE, and then popular phones like the razer were ubiquitous among those that were popular. Kids who didn’t have those things were bullied relentlessly.

That sounds awful. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Sounds like an American high school sitcom TV series scene.

Yep, I’m quite happy to have peaked in adulthood and not in high school.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#316

Post by cmsj »

faceplanted wrote: post #117
PeterStuer wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah ... except the whole video game gambling is fine-tuned and relentless in its pursuit to prey upon the vulnerabilities and blind-sights of the very exploitable. It is an addiction machine fishing for kids to enthrall. By all means educate your kids, but also make sure to protect them at their most vulnerable against an 'opponent' in a very uneven playing field. As for your comparison to trading card game boosters…

It's not just virtual currencies, it's permanence and tradability, kids don't just buy booster packs and take what they can get, they trade cards in complex ways, in some cases gift them to friends who wants to play, and the stack of cards is a visual representation of how much you've spent, whereas in some games, PUBG Mobile for example, your cosmetics literally disappear after a fixed time and if you have many dupl…

Items disappearing takes this scummy business model to a whole new depth of viciousness.

A few years ago i wanted to get my young sons a Disney Cars game to play on my iPad. There was a new one available, it was very pretty, but reasonable progress in the game depended on building your town using coins, and every single building you placed, had a timer counting down until it would disappear.

I don’t like wishing ill on other people, but it’s very hard to think kindly towards whomever designs games like that.

Obviously I immediately uninstalled the game before showing it to my boys. Zero dollars for Disney. If they’d just put a price tag on the whole experience, even if it had been quite high, I would have paid it.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#317

Post by notSupplied »

GuB-42 wrote: post #99
benj111 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No, you did good! He needs to learn how to handle this and you're right there guiding him." What's your model for what this is though? The GP mentions a pub fruit machine. I suppose you could make the case for it being like football stickers. As I'm writing this though, I'm not entirely sure what makes fruit machine bad , football stickers good . I would guess trading stickers is a social activity, and theres an in…

> As I'm writing this though, I'm not entirely sure what makes fruit machine bad, football stickers good. Slot machines pay out real money. It helps contributing to the illusion that you can recover from your losses by playing more. Football stickers, loot boxes, etc... make it clear that the money is spent.

Bingo. Games that let you trade actually are in legally shakier territory because of the cash-out potential.

I think this thread is missing the main reason why gambling dangerous: it can turn money into more money. The blinking lights and the Skinner box pyschology only play a supporting role to the main attraction: which is the belief that you can walk out richer than you walked in. This particularly plagues the poor, either because they are desperate or lack the financial accumen, and is the main reason why it is regulated. In the UK where sports gambling is legal, it is widely considered a blight on the lower class.

The fact the next roll could win back everything I've lost tonight AND make a profit on top, is far more dangerous than the next pull being merely able to finally get me that coveted Overwatch skin.

Hence why colloquially everyone calls loot boxes gambling, but no one has been able to make a strong legal case for why Overwatch loot boxes constitute gambling. If anything, Counterstrike is in the worse legal position and has had ACTUAL gambling scandals due to the high resale value of certain weapon skins.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#318

Post by ahakki »

NohatCoder wrote: post #224
ahakki wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The price to fill the World Cup 2018 Panini Sticker album is on average more than 800 Euros. If you can swap with a couple of friends (10+) the average price goes down to ~300 Euros. A sticker pack whale will spend hundreds of Euros. If you only wanna spend 50 bucks better get another hobby tbh.

£150 for 3x500 stickers at Amazon. That should leave you missing approximately 75 stickers, which you can buy as singletons directly from Panini, at £0.25 a piece. So you can do it for £170 with absolutely no social interaction required. Definitely an unreasonable amount for a bunch of stickers, but still peanuts compared to what a freemium video game can cost. Just to be clear, sticker collection economy is also sha…

> £150 for 3x500 stickers at Amazon.

This is a good price. I've been paying CHF 1.20 for 5 stickers at the local corner store.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#319

Post by dragonsngoblins »

SkyBelow wrote: post #308
dragonsngoblins wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The magic cards that cost thousands only cost so much because they aren't in print anymore. Ones with that kind of price point are collector's items and aren't even legal to use in the formats that are commonly played

But the booster packs that contains those cards are still available for sell. So why WotC isn't the one profiting off of it, private businesses still are selling them and some people do open them hoping for one of those rare cards. While it isn't a price point a normal child can afford, I don't see why it is different given that the items are still being actively sold.

Well the randomization is actually part of the product for a lot of people, boosters are typically used for sealed/draft games for example.

Secondly the booster packs that contain cards that cost thousands aren't still for sale, at least not from Wizards, though you might still find a few unopened ones around. Some of the cards available in current standard legal boosters might cost quite a bit, but not thousands

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