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France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

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Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#311

Post by zaroth »

aplummer wrote: post #307
uasm wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "That's a straw man." No, it isn't. Road tax pays for road maintenance. Municipal tax pays for municipal maintenance. VAT and Income Tax pay for government expenditure. Taxes are collected in exchange for a service. Foreign businesses providing entirely digital services in France aren't actually receiving any kind of service back from the French government. In other words, this specific tax is just a mechanism for…

> Foreign businesses providing entirely digital services in France aren't actually receiving any kind of service back from the French government. In other words, this specific tax is just a mechanism for collecting money arbitrarily in exchange for nothing. You've just ignored all the above posts without addressing them. The other posts make it clear without any counter argument from you that government provides a sa…

That argument reduces down to “because a market exists” — is that really a compelling justification for this particular additional tax?

Because the dollars being used to pay for the digital good have already been taxed, probably many times over, by the time the credit card transaction settles and the merchant account is credited at the end of the week (or whenever).

It’s reasonable to question if this particular tax was designed in a way to target specific foreign companies, without a compelling nexus, which would make the tax predatory.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#312

Post by filoleg »

zmk_ wrote: post #269
CountSessine wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A corp will raise prices to whatever level the market will bear. Why shouldn't a society do the same with taxes? A corp exists in a competitive market and can rarely raise prices to "whatever level the market will bear". If I don't like their prices, I use their competitor. What competitor does my mandatory government and it's confiscatory tax agency have? What alternative do I have but to hand over half my work to t…

What competitors will Amazon have in France if all the local competitors cannot escape paying local corporate taxes and Amazons of the word just throw a few millions at lawyers to shop around for the most convenient tax haven.

Ah yes, it is the lack of this tax that was preventing France from having their next Amazon. I am willing to bet significant amounts of money that even in 10 years France will have nothing even of remote resemblance of what Amazon was back in 2010, not even going to set the bar at what Amazon is today.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#313

Post by d1zzy »

gamblor956 wrote: post #168
bluecalm wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not that simple. They don't use any of the country infrastructure or workers. If I make a video game and sell it to a person in France does it mean I do business in France? It seems to me it should be treated the same as French person coming to my country, buying my game and going back home. We've just skipped on unnecessary traveling. Those things are subject to debate and power struggle but it's clear t…

If I make a video game and sell it to a person in France does it mean I do business in France? Yes, by the commonly and globally accepted definition of "doing business" in a country, selling into a country is doing business in that country. It seems to me it should be treated the same as French person coming to my country, buying my game and going back home. No, it would be more like your company going to France, sel…

> No, it would be more like your company going to France, selling the French guy the game, and then coming back to the US. The burden of tax compliance is placed on you, the seller, because you are the one profiting from the activity and therefore morally (and legally) should shoulder the burden.

I don't think that's as clear as you try to make it be. Both parties (seller and buyer) are doing something that is in their best interest, one is acquiring a product/service for some money, the other is selling it for the money. In both cases it serves their interests, both have a moral responsibility in regards to the exchange. And you see this reflected in tax laws too where both companies and consumers pay taxes relevant to a transaction.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#314

Post by uasm »

aplummer wrote: post #307
uasm wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "That's a straw man." No, it isn't. Road tax pays for road maintenance. Municipal tax pays for municipal maintenance. VAT and Income Tax pay for government expenditure. Taxes are collected in exchange for a service. Foreign businesses providing entirely digital services in France aren't actually receiving any kind of service back from the French government. In other words, this specific tax is just a mechanism for…

> Foreign businesses providing entirely digital services in France aren't actually receiving any kind of service back from the French government. In other words, this specific tax is just a mechanism for collecting money arbitrarily in exchange for nothing. You've just ignored all the above posts without addressing them. The other posts make it clear without any counter argument from you that government provides a sa…

> The other posts make it clear without any counter argument from you that government provides a safe and stable addressable market to do business (and literally the currency).

How does a government quantify providing "a safe and stable addressable market to do business"? What was the formula used to determine the tax bracket?

Unless we have a clear formula we can reason about, the tax would be arbitrary. Is that not the case?

Moreover, shouldn't the cost of providing "a safe and stable addressable market to do business" be a constant? We know how many French citizens utilize the service, and we should also (somehow) have the overall costs of "keeping the French market afloat". If so, why does the government tax a percentage of the total revenues?

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#315

Post by filoleg »

JAlexoid wrote: post #227
weberc2 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those large tech companies can make money in France because the french government provides all that is necessary for a free, fair and functioning market. How could Google make money in France if there was no french police force, education system, market regulation, court system, contract enforcement? Ignoring for a moment that this rationale can support any tax policy at all (including 100% tax rates)... This holds…

Just a reminder - some US states have sales taxes applied to Amazon purchases, even though they weren't charging them before. This is pretty much the same.

You sell a product, you pay a sales tax. Those states simply leveled the field for Amazon to compete on the same level as local retail stores that pay the sales tax, so everyone pays the same. Makes perfect sense.

And iirc Amazon already pays that in the form of VAT.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#316

Post by jfk13 »

filoleg wrote: post #312
zmk_ wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What competitors will Amazon have in France if all the local competitors cannot escape paying local corporate taxes and Amazons of the word just throw a few millions at lawyers to shop around for the most convenient tax haven.

Ah yes, it is the lack of this tax that was preventing France from having their next Amazon. I am willing to bet significant amounts of money that even in 10 years France will have nothing even of remote resemblance of what Amazon was back in 2010, not even going to set the bar at what Amazon is today.

I hope you're right. What Amazon is today is a grossly dysfunctional "marketplace", and I hope to see the end of it.

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#317

Post by forty »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #153
bryanlarsen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What public resources did Amazon, a US company, use from France?" off the top of my head, I'm sure there are lots more: - a large set of well-off consumers who got there because of free public education, parental supports, et cetera - a safe society so drop shipping is possible - roads & infrastructure for shipping - a justice system that protects Amazon from cheating buyers and sellers - a stable, accepted currency…

>- roads & infrastructure for shipping Their whole point was that the shipper would pay taxes. Which they do. This applies to most of your points as well, they do get taxed on their warehouses. What I find most comical about all this is there's already a 20% VAT on everything Amazon sells there. They do pay taxes already, France simply wants more, and this tax is written in a way where it will have a much larger effe…

In France businesses do not pay VAT, only consumers do. Business do collect it (on behalf of the state), but they never have to pay it themselves (technically: they get a refund when they do)

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#318

Post by Hithredin »

filoleg wrote: post #312
zmk_ wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What competitors will Amazon have in France if all the local competitors cannot escape paying local corporate taxes and Amazons of the word just throw a few millions at lawyers to shop around for the most convenient tax haven.

Ah yes, it is the lack of this tax that was preventing France from having their next Amazon. I am willing to bet significant amounts of money that even in 10 years France will have nothing even of remote resemblance of what Amazon was back in 2010, not even going to set the bar at what Amazon is today.

They are talking about physical shops. Which are also competitors of Amazon. And where does your assessment comes from? Just guess?

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#319

Post by forty »

colpabar wrote: post #310
forty wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(replying to sibling) Some do. Source: I'm French and I do :)

Out of curiosity, would you say most French people think the same way? I ask because I'm American and we really hate taxes here.

Hard to say, this is matter of political option so it changes regularly :) my easy guess is that most people like benefits paid thanks to the taxes but do not like paying them :D

Re: France has approved a digital services tax despite threats of retaliation by US

#320

Post by [deleted] »

colpabar wrote: post #271
jwr wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those large tech companies can make money in France because the french government provides all that is necessary for a free, fair and functioning market. How could Google make money in France if there was no french police force, education system, market regulation, court system, contract enforcement? Also, those large tech companies can sell to French customers because French customers have money to buy from them.…

Don't you think that a company might just raise their prices to pay for those taxes?

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