New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking • Hacker News Board

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#311

Post by IanCal » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 8:38 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #60

IanCal wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google either do or used to automatically detect your home and work based on your history. While I agree it should be settable without it, that may be the reason why they were tied.

That’s a very charitable way to explain this. It’s much more likely that they want to coerce people to turn on tracking.

Quite possibly, though I have a very uncharitable reason for my guess. Google likes to go for "don't worry we'll do it automatically!" but they're overconfident and often terrible at it. This seems to happen throughout the business and is a huge downside to me. I wonder if they added the feature without thinking it'd be worth letting people set it themselves because they're so good at doing it automatically. This also has the benefit of being a decision made at a lower level rather a larger "add more tracking" push.

I've had to turn off lots of automated Google things like ticket reminders (that tell me to catch the wrong train because they can't read the email right).

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#312

Post by Plough_Jogger » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #45

This dark pattern seems to be spreading. Amazon recently pushed out an update to their (beta last I knew) web app that allows you to use their smile.amazon.com charity donation through the app. But in order to turn that on, you have to turn on all the notifications the app has, including their rather constant pushes of "deals I may be interested in". They're holding you hostage to their notifications because "it's fo…

Amazon is not based in Silicon Valley, do you mean consumer tech as an industry?

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

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Post by jimmytucson » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 8:44 PM UTC

stlHusker wrote: post #199

jimmytucson wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3 or 4 rounds of A/B testing and you get the most efficient (read: manipulative) method of getting users "engaged" Now replace “engaged” with “to buy stuff” and that’s essentially online advertising. You’re being tricked by gurus of the mind to send your money to someone else. How this is legal represents a gap between traditional laws and modern times. The sad truth for us software engineers is, a lot of the most…

> You’re being tricked by gurus of the mind to send your money to someone else. How this is legal represents a gap between traditional laws and modern times. Eh, this has existed for decades at a macro level in over-the-air television and radio. 'If you're not paying for the product, you are the product' is a quote that has been floating around since at least the 1970s. Methods and techniques now have the ability to…

> Eh, this has existed for decades at a macro level in over-the-air television and radio.

Advertising predates the internet, of course. What does not is the ability to personalize advertising to the individual using computer intelligence trained on volumes of data about people’s lives, recorded in microscopic detail. I don’t think the level of manipulation and personalization pre-internet is comparable to what advertising firms such as Google and Facebook are capable of now.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

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Post by int_19h » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 8:55 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #240

DontGiveTwoFlux wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked on desktop software, I much prefer the services model. There were endless conversations about a support matrix and patching older versions for customers who refused to upgrade. We were hamstrung by old design decisions and backporting fixes making any change onerous. We couldn’t add value for new customers as fast because we spent a majority of the time supporting older customers. Now those older custom…

Having worked on desktop software, I much prefer the services model. I think that's one portion of how we ended up where we are now: The companies thinking more about what is easier for the company than the needs of the customer.

The companies will always think about their bottom line. They will think of the needs of the customer to the extent that actually affects said bottom line. But customers demonstrated, through their behavior in the marketplace, that they also prefer the service model - or at least they don't care enough to preserve the old model. And so, here we are.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

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Post by Bogdanp » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 9:03 PM UTC

FabHK wrote: post #304

pyr0hu wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * use anonymous/private/porn mode browsing most of the time (except for sites I actually want to be logged in permanently) instead of this, I just use Firefox and use the Multi-Account Container function to separate my browsing

Interesting idea. I should give Firefox another try. (I'm also using Fluid for self-contained Facebook browsing, I suppose that would then become unnecessary).

If you use Chrome, none of the steps you listed matter as far as protecting yourself from Google. I used to use Chrome until it really struck home with me what the incentives are for the world's biggest web advertising company to own the world's most popular web browser in a world where over-the-wire auto-updates are commonplace.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#316

Post by intopieces » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 9:08 PM UTC

ranit wrote: post #167

jerf wrote: post #45

This dark pattern seems to be spreading. Amazon recently pushed out an update to their (beta last I knew) web app that allows you to use their smile.amazon.com charity donation through the app. But in order to turn that on, you have to turn on all the notifications the app has, including their rather constant pushes of "deals I may be interested in". They're holding you hostage to their notifications because "it's fo…

> Silicon Valley has no intention of retraining itself in any manner. Historically, no industry, once became major, intended to retrain itself to be more positive to the society. If any improvement happened, it was forced from outside.

This is true, by virtue of the fact that industries cannot have intentions, only incentives. Incentives can re-align based on many forces: social, environmental, political, all of which underlie the desire for everyone to keep their jobs and/or keep their stock price high enough fill their retirement accounts.

If the "tech industry" can be considered a single entity, it appears that the incentive re-alignment is happening from all these forces at once.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#317

Post by Spivak » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 9:08 PM UTC

malnourish wrote: post #269

JKCalhoun wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, let Prime lapse a year or two ago as well. Moving my business to other companies now.

What competitors are you using?

Nothing seems like a 1-1 Amazon replacement but buying stuff from actual online stores has worked out pretty well for me since I research products too much before I buy anyway.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#318

Post by DennisAleynikov » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 9:08 PM UTC

noisem4ker wrote: post #238

vorticalbox wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just amazing Samsung is constantly bugging you to sign in with a Samsung account and that apps like galaxy store REQUIRE access to contacts and sms. Just to download an app..

I have never been bugged since I've set up my phone and disabled the bundled apps I didn't need. Galaxy S7 with Oreo.

Same here. Samsung does not impose anything on you especially if you don't want to use their services you are free to ignore or uninstall those apps. Theres no black UX and theres excessive notifications about transgressions like accessing mic or camera in bg.

Besides all that the android permissions system is broken on a verbage level. contacts permission is often only needed for login, like authentication but also grants permission to scrape data. so you end up with little visibility into what data you are giving up.

People end up rightfully fearing apps asking for contacts and calls and location services, when the apps just need access to some api that is bundled under vague unbrella terms like location services

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#319

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #314

reaperducer wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked on desktop software, I much prefer the services model. I think that's one portion of how we ended up where we are now: The companies thinking more about what is easier for the company than the needs of the customer.

The companies will always think about their bottom line. They will think of the needs of the customer to the extent that actually affects said bottom line. But customers demonstrated, through their behavior in the marketplace, that they also prefer the service model - or at least they don't care enough to preserve the old model. And so, here we are.

Software tends to spread from person to person, and any given piece of software in context is usually non-substitutable - therefore I believe consumers weren't really given an option to voice their opinion on product vs. service. Companies started to migrate to service model, and customers had to follow suit, because they didn't have any choice.

Re: New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking

#320

Post by annapurna » Fri, Feb 01, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

FabHK wrote: post #285

ehsankia wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would've liked it if they included photos and videos of these "deceptive" interactions. Instead they have this flashy video which basically is just showcasing the Timeline feature, and pretending it's some secret malicious data collection plan.

Do you doubt that the deceptive interactions they describe exist as described? Most people do not realise how much data Google et al. collect about them, and are genuinely shocked when it is shown to them (even though, yes, it's an existing feature well known to you and most HN readers). The video demonstrates both a) how much Google collects (which comes as a surprise to most people), and b) that most people are not…

> Most people do not realise how much data Google et al. collect about them, and are genuinely shocked when it is shown to them (even though, yes, it's an existing feature well known to you and most HN readers).

I was surprised (even though I should not be) when I saw how conveniently all my Amazon purchases and travel plans (flight reservations, check-in, rentals etc.) were neatly organized when I went to remove all my personal information. I understand the convenience (with Amazon - being able to track the delivery, flights - automatic calendar scheduling etc.) but oh boy does Google like to gather all the data forever.