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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#311

Post by Aunche »

quest88 wrote: post #252
vasilipupkin wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how specifically is the rest of the world worse off because Google is offering a product in China for local China market? I don't see it.

Hypothetically: Google starts making tons of cash from China. China threatens to cut off the cash-flow if certain results aren't removed from search results outside of China (or something similar). We'd like to think Google wouldn't do this just for the money, but Dragonfly sets precedent that it would do something just for the money.

If Google makes enough money from China, they would have as much leverage against China as China has against it. The resulting social unrest caused by a major search engine disappearing in China would far exceed any benefit they would get from censoring other countries. In my opinion, it's much more dangerous to allow Chinese tech companies to have a free monopoly without any resistance.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#312

Post by SirLJ »

prolikewh0a wrote: post #288

I also feel like they've changed search so much for profit purposes that it's impossible to find certain things without receiving pages of irrelevance. I've been using Google since the early 2000's and it's so easy to tell Search has dropped in quality. Certain words & phrases I know would produce legitimate useful search results in 2008 will now just pull pages of unrelated ads. It's still the best, but the profit m…

It actually distorts the reality... different results on mobile vs pc, VPN, different users, etc...

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#313

Post by bad_user »

lgleason wrote: post #253

While I agree with their stand on this issue, there is a big level of hypocrisy in these statements since Google is well known for suppressing search results and banning people on YouTube etc. based on political ideology. So I'd like to see them stand up against that as well.

That’s just lame whataboutism.

Google has to comply with the laws of the countries they operate in. And in fact Google has been nothing but transparent in the requests they got.

And yes, that’s why they pulled out of China in the first place, because you can’t operate against the law.

I haven’t seen other software or hardware companies pulling out of China. Microsoft and Apple are certainly happy to do business there and nobody condemned them for it.

Microsoft for example was accused of censoring Chinese search results in Bing globally.

Mind you, that other companies are as bad or worse is not the argument I’m making. What I am saying is that I hope you apply the same standards to all the companies you’re interacting with.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#314

Post by Benjammer »

projectramo wrote: post #240
nimbius wrote: post #33

Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…

Not to be cynical, but did another company take over that work for them? Did the police get their MRAPs?

This is a problem that my employer faces. We have a strong concept of corporate responsibility, and plenty of opportunity for employee pushback, but we repeatedly see our decisions simply subverted by competitors who don't have any sense of morals and just go where the money is. It becomes a nasty tradeoff where you think about building/doing things that don't feel good, just to maintain a position to have a positive influence on _other_ areas, where a competitor might simply act without morals everywhere. It's not fun to think about these things in a market with bad incentives.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#316

Post by headsupftw »

Puer wrote: post #38

I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me, but their decision to backtrack on their promise in China changed my mind. I do not morally condemn anyone who works at Google. I have many good friends that are both bright engineers and undeniably good people that work there. I just feel that as someone who's family is Taiwanese, I cannot in good consciousness support the company. I let t…

Do you in good consciousness support the U.S. government? I'm asking because the government doesn't recognize Taiwan as an independent country and kicked Taiwan out of the United Nations in 1971.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#317

Post by YayamiOmate »

politician wrote: post #238
educationdata wrote: post #10

There are not many Chinese names in the signed letter, and I can fully understand. If you are a Chinese H1B or green card holder, and you signed this letter, it is almost certain the Chinese government will contact your family in China.

How many Chinese social credit points would the family members of the signer lose if a Googler were to sign this letter?

Might be less than by analyzing all their searches...

This might not be an exact relation, but my point is that it still may be worthwhile in a longer perspective. Social changes and engineering are nontrivial processes.

Boiling frog paradox and such...

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#318

Post by RangerScience »

alangibson wrote: post #97
nimbius wrote: post #33

Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…

You deserve massive credit for striking a blow against this madness. A great example of how working people have more power than they think if they're willing to risk dollars and cents for matters of right and wrong. I say that fully realizing that not everyone is in the financial position where they can risk a fight with their employer. You can't expect everyone to be Ghandi.

- if they're willing

+ if they're willing and able

FTFY

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#319

Post by jdw22 »

maemilius wrote: post #187
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I’d like to try and agree... I think you may be missing a sense of scale and the reality of just how replaceable people are... even magically-gifted google employees.

Replacing people might be easy, but it's never cheap - even in industries with an abundance of candidates. The real issue with having your work-force leave is three-fold. First, you lose all the accumulated knowledge of your team. Second, you lose the cohesiveness of your team. Thirdly, you have to _pay to get a new team_. All of these things conspire to make all but the lowliest of jobs (think Target Associate) much…

There are hidden costs to taking a stand too. The costs to either side are not the point of the story.

Nor are the outcomes produced by a few brave people locally.

The point of the story is to draw a line in the sand. And that line matters when people are afraid to stand together on one side of it.

If you look at the example of Gandhi and the Salt Tax the mere act of picking salt of the ground and being threatened with arrest unified a country and sent a signal to the British were the line was. Sending that signal matters. Countries were that signal was not sent took many more decades to get independence.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#320

Post by the_jeremy »

barrkel wrote: post #143
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is true. The stock market demands their hockey stick. If Google doesn't go after the Chinese market, their stock value will suffer. It's all about returning as much money to investors as possible. Period. Otherwise you suffer the consequences.

This is a universal argument for doing anything that makes a profit in the short term. Usually, apologists for corporate immorality bring up fiduciary duty, as if it explains and justifies things. But the argument falls apart if you poke at it even a little, because it completely omits the other side of the argument. Why doesn't Google start a restaurant chain, or start making PCs, or selling servers, or licensing so…

I agree, but there is an extent to which these companies by law are forced to operate against the positive value of their brand [0]; see Dodge vs. Ford Motor Co. I realize it's not the same, just that there's some amount of precedent.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

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