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NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

theguardian.com

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Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#311

Post by rayiner »

closetohome wrote: post #197
martinald wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC subway fares are insanely cheap compared to the rest of the (developed) world. $2.75 single for any distance is incredibly low. In London that same fare in rush hour would be anywhere between $4 and $15+ depending on the length of the journey (and NYC has much higher GDP per capita than London, plus the £ is on its arse at the moment). Even Berlin is marginally more expensive, in a much smaller & less economicall…

I've always thought that fares should be more symbolic than a real source of revenue. They should definitely be low enough that even the poorest residents of the city can easily afford to travel on public transportation.

Most of the people who ride the subway are not poor, and the average subway rider is probably richer than the average NYS taxpayer. Why subsidize the transportation of all the middle class and rich people who ride the subway every day?

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#312

Post by tellarin »

bobthepanda wrote: post #234
pzone wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Tokyo, the rail transit system (including subways) is operated by a network of private companies. These train operators make a net profit from fares and other revenues, and the system is generally well liked by its customers. Even if the idea of privatization makes you cringe, the idea that public transit is inevitably a money pit or loss leader is misguided. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2011/10/why-toky…

It's worth noting that they got there because at the time of development, the rail companies were able to buy up the surrounding land and develop that. They reinvested their real estate profits into more rail and more real estate, creating a virtuous cycle. (Hong Kong, one of the only other profitable systems, did something similar by having the government effectively transfer land for free initially.) American rail…

That’s actually the same model the Hong Kong MTR company applies for the subway lines it manages in mainland China (like lines 4, 14, and 16 in Beijing). Buy land right where lines will pass and near stations and develop it.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#313

Post by rayiner »

victor106 wrote: post #183
InitialLastName wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is really that the MTA is funded and controlled by the State of New York, while it predominantly serves the City of New York. Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless streetcars and ferries; they let him get out from under the thumb of the state.

MTA was looted by the state. It is reasonably profitable but all those profits are being spent by the state for other non MTA activities. https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/policy/infrastructur... The best public transport model is the one in London.

Incorrect. According to the NYT, redirection of MTA funds amounts to about $1.5 billion over 20 years. That’s $75 million per year, or what MTA spends in 2 days.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#314

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

pseudolus wrote: post #81
jimnotgym wrote: post #73

$2.75 sounds really cheap to my British ears. How far can you go on that?

The NYC system isn't composed of "zones" like the systems in such cities as London and Paris. Essentially, once you pay your $2.75 you're free to travel to any subway station in the system. There's also a bus system with limited transfers.

Toronto and London have zones. I'd bet the farm that Byford does the same when the MetroCard replacement is fully deployed.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#315

Post by scarejunba »

nicoburns wrote: post #299
InitialLastName wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is really that the MTA is funded and controlled by the State of New York, while it predominantly serves the City of New York. Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless streetcars and ferries; they let him get out from under the thumb of the state.

Surely the city could give extra funds to the MTA if it wanted to?

The state would take them out. It controls the MTA.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#316

Post by 1stranger »

jimmy1 wrote: post #306
TheSoftwareGuy wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's likely referring to how (some) people enjoy driving because of the sense of freedom & control it gives them. But he is asserting that this is just an illusion. Honestly, I feel the same way, since most time I spend driving I spend sitting in traffic or something.

There are few things I get more enjoyment out of than driving a car that corners well through a beautiful mountainous road like the Blue Ridge Parkway through the Appalachian, or up through Yosemite from Fresno. When I need to clear my head, I still hop in the car and go for a drive with music. Not also afraid to admit -- I've had some of my most cathartic, emotional-cleansing crys in the vehicle by myself. In this d…

Of course other countries with excellent public transit also have plenty of scenic country roads. It's not like we have to pick between the two. (I don't think you were claiming we do, I just wanted to highlight that argument.)

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#317

Post by throwaway-10001 »

nemo44x wrote: post #229
nine_k wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mobile reception and wi-fi on stations, and displays with helpful info and arrivals / departures are very welcome additions, and likely did not cost a lot. Consumer-grade connectivity within tunnels is likely piggy-backed on the connectivity required for the trains infrastructure. Currently the subway operates a system from 1930s to control the lights and detect train positions. It is based on mechanical / magnetic r…

> Mobile reception and wi-fi on stations, and displays with helpful info and arrivals / departures are very welcome additions, and likely did not cost a lot. Installing countdown clocks on only the lettered subway lines cost $209 million. This doesn't include the numbered lines which have had them for about 10 years which also cost hundreds of millions. In all the project took 29 years. [1] If you want to know how mu…

> If you want to know how much it cost to install WiFi is was budgeted for $200 million and ended up at around $300 million.

Except that none of this money came from the MTA. The complete project was funded by private entities. Most of the cost was passed through to the four major wireless carriers. Those carriers continue to pay, on a monthly basis, for their ability to offer services in the Subway and the MTA receives portion of that payment. So, from the MTA's perspective, this project generates revenue. Same goes for a number of similar projects.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#318

Post by cat199 »

"experts"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

"Span 2003b. "No one sought an answer to Quinby’s most penetrating question (referring to the 1935 Public Utility Holding Company Act), "Who Is Behind This Campaign To Separate The Obviously Economical Combination Of Electric Railway And Its Power Plant?"

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#319

Post by ShorsHammer »

gameswithgo wrote: post #265
ProfessorLayton wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that most of the wear and tear on our roads isn't caused by people's cars. People pay much more than their fair share of road maintenance via gas taxes etc than the industries that cause the most damage to the roads. Semis cause 1,400x more wear than cars [1]. [1] https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf

it is my potatoes in the trucks. I can pay the road tax, or more for potato. doesn't matter.

Or your potato truck could simply have more wheels and not be overloaded.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#320

Post by scarejunba »

tootie wrote: post #91
syntaxing wrote: post #26

Not surprised. Not only are we lacking in physical infrastructure, but also technological infrastructure. I still don't understand how we do not have stations like in developed Asian countries like Japan or Hong Kong. The trains are "one" unit and the stations are doubled door with people at each station assisting (or ticketing..) you if needed. The train practically drive themselves. The conductor is there for emerg…

Our system is 100 years old and their's aren't.

Paris and London are older and better.
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