Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

euractiv.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 408 posts

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#311

Post by hydrox24 »

reaperducer wrote: post #299
hydrox24 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (the car tax is) paid for by people in suburbia who _have_ to own a car to survive. I have been wondering for a little while now if the extreme libertarian position on private roads has been vindicated. I am not sure yet, but it seems possible where once it was ridiculous. Starting with (let us say) World war two, cities and states built out substantial, publicly funded roads and road networks in order to connect u…

Starting with (let us say) World war two, cities and states built out substantial, publicly funded roads and road networks in order to connect up newly developed sub-urban centres that were designed for car owners In the United States, it was somewhat more complex than that. The highway network was and is primarily part of the nation's military defense infrastructure, so that weapons and personnel can be moved around…

> In the United States, it was somewhat more complex than that. The highway network was and is primarily part of the nation's military defense infrastructure

You are right. I am not contesting the Highway system, which actually still seems to be a good case for Federal public spending, both because it benefits the military and because it is inter-state.

My point is entirely regarding the roads that were built out from the dense urban cores to connect with sub-urbs, and the roads built to connect sub-urbs with one another, and those inside of suburbs too. If these were paid for by those who used them (and not inner-city dwellers) then perhaps urban sprawl would not have happened, and we would have saved ourselves from a whole host of externalities we are only discovering now.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#312

Post by aembleton »

Necromant2005 wrote: post #263

Electro cars are great, until you start count. Ok, if Denmark population is about 5.7M and based on aerostat ( https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... ) there're around 500 cars per 1000 citizen. It means country holds ~2.5M cars right now. In general (based on https://www.worlddata.info/europe/denmark/energy-consumption... ) every Denmark's citizen consumes 20kh per day. 1 of 2 citizen has a…

That assumes that every car in Denmark will consume 50kwh per day. The 64kw Kona Electric will do 300 miles according to the WLTP [1]. So, that assumes every car does 234 miles every day, or over 85k miles per year.

I can't find any solid data, but I'd assume its closer to 10k miles per year, or an eighth of what you're suggesting. That is still a lot, but it is achievable especially with more offshore wind.

1. https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#313

Post by stephengillie »

SECProto wrote: post #297
tom_ wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? There are cars that are that efficient, but as an average ? In real life?

Europe and Japan both use smaller engine sizes, increasing fuel economy pretty drastically compared to North America. Especially when your average speed might be 80 km/hr, rather than 80 miles an hour. I don't know if their different testing regimes reflect that (maybe). Anecdote: several years ago, I got the lightest, smallest-engined, most-efficient car I could find here in Canada, a Toyota Yaris. And using a calcu…

A Toyota Camry Hybrid will get better MPG with a 2.5 liter engine, and give more space for passengers and cargo, than the Yaris. Also it has EV-like torque.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#314

Post by stephengillie »

BonjelaSoup wrote: post #283
noobermin wrote: post #241

People especially here constantly rail against Europe, specifically their start-up scene, against taxes, against regulations, etc. At the same time, our cities are unlivable, inaccessible, crowded, our infrastructure is falling apart, a widening gap between the wealthy and the poor causing increases in homelessness in cities and opiod addiction in rural areas. Western Europe isn't utopia, but in many areas, their pol…

> "People especially here constantly rail against Europe" > "our cities" Where is "here" and "our cities"?

People love to cherry pick a statistic from one European city, and ask why all of the American empire can't be like that.

/s/public transportation/health care/cars/etc.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#315

Post by stephengillie »

emiliobumachar wrote: post #281
logifail wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By coincidence, I'll be picking up a brand new (ICE) vehicle from my dealer in just over 12 hours' time. The electric version of the vehicle I'm buying costs just a shade over twice as much(!) as the ICE version. I'm not fine paying more than twice as much for a product that in many respects is "less good".

Good point, but how much of that is the manufacturer pre-compensating itself for all the extra maintenance that it won't sell you?

Unlike Tesla, the dealer performs the maintenance for other cars. Or maybe a 3rd party shop. Do they have a kickback agreement with the manufacturer?

How much does Tesla pre-compensate for the maintenance they won't authorize others to do?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#316

Post by stephengillie »

tomp wrote: post #66
maxsilver wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid "Just 1 mile of electric range" is true for most hybrids that don't plug into to charge (from Ford, Chevy, Toyota, etc). Obviously more miles would be even better, but this isn't a terrible thing on it's own. The base non-plug-in Toyota Prius Hybrid has had "just 1 mile of electr…

> that hasn't stopped it from getting 50mpg ratings Is this the "50mpg under ideal laboratory conditions driven by an AI" or "as driven in a real city/highway by a human"?

My 2016 Camry Hybrid consistently gets 39mpg. There are all kinds of situations where you don't need an engine, and it shuts off completely - like coasting downhill, on a ramp from one freeway to another, at 42 mph. Engine shuts off, and regenerative braking slows the car as much as everyone else is braking.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#317

Post by prawn »

wongarsu wrote: post #259
tom_ wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? There are cars that are that efficient, but as an average ? In real life?

The average European car is very different from the average US car. The most sold cars in the US are the Ford F series, in the EU it's the VW Golf and similar hatchbacks. There are a lot of forces at play here, among others tax rates (which cause the F150 to get bigger and European cars to get lighter), fuel prices, culture (in Europe a big truck won't impress anyone, you get other types of cars for that), average an…

You didn't mention parking. In many European cities I've visited, you'd barely be able to park a larger American car almost anywhere. Last trip over there, I rented an MPV which effectively fit a family with seats for two children, plus luggage, in what was barely bigger than an Australian hatchback. And even that was nerve-wracking to drive in some underground carparks, or park in old-town streets.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#318

Post by stephengillie »

Annatar wrote: post #108
tomp wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that hasn't stopped it from getting 50mpg ratings Is this the "50mpg under ideal laboratory conditions driven by an AI" or "as driven in a real city/highway by a human"?

I get 49 MPG in mixed mode driving on a Euro III emissions compliant diesel every day. Newer diesels are even more efficient. And I don't spare the accelerator either.

Do you trust Bosch and your vehicle manufacturer to be honest to you, when they lie to your government?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#319

Post by stephengillie »

Zekio wrote: post #237
rohit2412 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then aren't hybrids better than BEV, given a few miles of range? Why make a 90KwHr battery for a car, if you can make 3 cars out of it. After all current reserves of Cobalt, nickel, and lithium are finite.

Cobalt is the most finite one of those, and once lithium prices go up it is likely someone will begin harvesting it from sea water

Or fising carbon to make lithium.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#320

Post by stephengillie »

meguest wrote: post #146
gambiting wrote: post #3

As great as it is, remember that hybrids are exempt. And the law is very lax when it comes to a definition of a hybrid - Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid and could still be sold under this ban. I expect very very soon we'll see this kind of extremely minor electrification coming to all kinds of vehicles, where a t…

Car manufacturers are now looking at using 48v powered turbochargers to eliminate turbo lag. I wonder if that could be seen as an electrification of the powertrain?

A turbocharger is a funny shaped air compressor. So let's put an air compressor in the trunk and pipe the air to the intake manifold. And if there car is a hybrid, that battery can power the compressor too.
Post reply on HN