Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 474 posts

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#311

Post by [deleted] »

notafraudster wrote: post #308
jolmg wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote, but I think cptaj's point was to "unsabotage" the rating system. Ideally, the 5-star rating system should work like: - 1-star means Awful - 2-star means Bad - 3-star means OK - 4-star means Good - 5-star means Excellent That means no one should have any problem using something rated 3 or above. However, by "[shopping] for that 5-star rating and [punishing] anyone with a 4", the rating system ends u…

This does not follow. Even in a system where 3 stars means excellent, 4 stars means once in a lifetime, and 5 stars means Platonic Ideal, I'm still going to look for restaurants (or drivers or network routers or whatever the thing is) that are as close to 5* as possible. Do I subdivide between 4.45 and 4.47 stars? No. But in general I'm going to sort my results by some measure of quality. I'm also optimizing over oth…

[deleted]

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#312

Post by mnm1 »

cptaj wrote: post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

And yet these stores aren't considered a monopoly? There is no competition and no one can make an app and distribute it outside the store in Apple's case, but no you can go to Google where the situation is virtually the same. Regulation is the only thing that can possibly fix it. If it's a touchy subject for people, people need to be less sensitive and ask themselves what else could possibly be a solution? Do people really think that the industry will regulate itself or something equally implausible?

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#313

Post by bigmit37 »

binomialxenon wrote: post #228
Steko wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep saying Apple adds no value but bringing millions of paying customers and a trusted storefront does in fact have lots of value for most apps. This is exactly the value Steam brings on PC. Being locked down or not is a red herring to the value argument, people sell on Steam because of simple math: the millions of additional paying customers outweighs the commission Valve demands.

Valve has competitors in the PC games storefront market. On iOS, there is (for all practical reasons) no other storefront. People would be stuck on the App Store even if they were to charge something ridiculous like 50%, because there's no where else to go.

I’m surprised there is no backlash from independent iOS developers. Not only do they have 30% taken away, they have the yearly $100 fee,they need expensive Apple products to make the app, apps have be priced low because consumers expect low priced amazing apps. Then you have to market the app to stand out.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#314

Post by AnthonyMouse »

mrep wrote: post #307
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why I think we need a new way of identifying market abuse because you can make anyone a/not a monopoly based on what definition you use. Which is why it matters if there are close substitutes or not. > IOS device software distribution -> apple has a monopoly There are no good substitutes for this. There is no viable alternative for distributing apps to the people with iOS devices. Distributing apps to peopl…

I agree that there are substitutes for everything except the IOS distribution one. I also agree that most of these metrics are not true monopolies. However, I'm using the term "monopoly" in the way the EU sees it when enacting antitrust fines to curtail this type of behavior because what they basically use is >50% in some arbitrarily chosen metric (percent of of smartphones running an OS used for the EUs recent 5 bil…

The problem with what the EU is doing is that they aren't interested in applying a rigorous standard. It's perfectly possible to define markets or abuse in various ways, but if all they're really doing is to backfill reasoning to justify enormous fines on American businesses there is no point in arguing about what is in practice a rationalization, and the response if they continue to use such ambiguous rules probably ought to be something like lobbying the US government to negotiate a truce (or retaliate in kind against EU businesses).

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#315

Post by xoa »

notafraudster wrote: post #308
jolmg wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote, but I think cptaj's point was to "unsabotage" the rating system. Ideally, the 5-star rating system should work like: - 1-star means Awful - 2-star means Bad - 3-star means OK - 4-star means Good - 5-star means Excellent That means no one should have any problem using something rated 3 or above. However, by "[shopping] for that 5-star rating and [punishing] anyone with a 4", the rating system ends u…

This does not follow. Even in a system where 3 stars means excellent, 4 stars means once in a lifetime, and 5 stars means Platonic Ideal, I'm still going to look for restaurants (or drivers or network routers or whatever the thing is) that are as close to 5* as possible. Do I subdivide between 4.45 and 4.47 stars? No. But in general I'm going to sort my results by some measure of quality. I'm also optimizing over oth…

I don't think you've thought this through entirely, primarily because your analysis here though misses out on a cost function for stars.

>I'm definitely not going to voluntarily get worse food so I can protest the idea of ratings.

Yeah, but most people (maybe including you) certainly will "voluntarily get worse food" if you consider the price difference sufficient. In a system where 3 stars means good or excellent it can be expected there will be a non-linear increase in cost and skill requirements to hit 4 or 5 stars. They will be rarer, likely less convenient, and certainly more expensive. For a special occasion sure, maybe you go for the very best. But in general many people will be perfectly happy with a lower starred establishment that is more affordable and convenient and still perfectly decent. Sometimes people just want to fill their stomachs for the purpose of continued survival in a reasonably pleasant fashion, not have a magical gourmet experience. Scale compression removes visibility for this basic tradeoff right?

I mean, we can even find a direct example of this in the food world right now: Michelin Stars. It's a 1 to 3 scale and even a single one is a big deal. But the standards necessary to qualify and maintain it are not cheap for the restaurant. I remember reading of a very nice restaurant in a more run down area of France that had earned a star, and were very proud of it, but ultimately decided to give it up because it resulted in them being priced out of the general range of locals. Conversely there is nothing bad about going to even a 1 Michelin star restaurant, it'll still be likely to be very good.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#316

Post by colordrops »

compostable wrote: post #299
tankerdude wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Untrue. Chinese restaurants in the SGV are tough. 3 stars in LA crushes 5 stars in other cities in the US. And yes, I’ve lived 10 years in the Bay Area and the Chinese food pales in comparison.

Hmmm, we are going to have to check your credentials. In your opinion what is the best Chinese restaurant in either LA or SF?

Bistro Na's

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#317

Post by adrianratnapala »

baby wrote: post #247
michaelchisari wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Los Angeles has serious grade inflation across the board wrt social ratings. Their yelp reviews are completely unreliable, everything is 4 or 5 stars. I'm used to Chicago where even a great restaurant can have 3 stars because everyone is so picky, and the 4 or 5 stars are reserved for the truly extraordinary.

Good chinese restaurants in London (like my old place) end up having less than 4 stars because of service. I find that raging since the food is the only thing that should matter.

I wouldn't make a blanket statement like "the food is the only thing that should matter"; but for some Chinese restaurants, bad service is part of the fun.

My favourite is "Oriental Canteen" near South Kensington station. At lunchtime I would order takeway, and then go browse a neighbouring bookshop. One day, as I was heading back the manager (who was rude on the best of days) just wordlessly held the bag with my lunch out the window so that I just grabbed it from her hands without even setting foot in her restaurant.

An excellent combination of impoliteness and efficiency for busy people who are there to exchange money for food rather than to make friends.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#318

Post by ismail »

tareqak wrote: post #226
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the big problems with forming a gig worker union is the same problem with gig work in general; you're disconnected with your coworkers and other firm participants. Uber can press a button in response to a strike and send out a push notification to potential scabs offering a bribe to cross the digital picket line. The strikers both don't know and can't efficiently tell who scabs are, and as such can't put press…

I'd argue that what people need is a "meta"-union with gig-specific chapters. Regardless of the type of employment, all people are human beings with needs, desires, and limitations. You could argue that government and political parties are supposed to be just that, but here we are.

See the case study of Nidan. They setup unions in India for informal workers. A union of unions so to speak.the centre that did the case study is one of the best to understand Systems change

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_SF17_Case_Studies_02_Nidan_...

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#319

Post by jpeloquin »

pcmaffey wrote: post #213
cptaj wrote: post #135

And they should. We are fast approaching a world where all markets are walled-in by a few international companies. I've had clients of mine go under because Amazon decided to close their accounts and they depend on the platform to sell their wares. Imagine how hard it is to sell stuff online if you're barred from ebay and amazon... and there is no legal recourse to appeal those bans. Same goes for app stores, what ha…

We engineers could also develop more intelligent and robust rating systems.

Perhaps old ratings should be removed or down-weighted in the system as time passes. This would make the ratings better reflect current levels of quality, (a) helping people learn and recover from mistakes and (b) keeping people from coasting on past success while reducing quality.

Not sure how to get general users to rate with 1-star = bad, 3-stars = ok, and 5-stars = great. Sounds like a social engineering problem. It may be more reliable to use trained evaluators, like the system used by Consumer Reports or the Michelin Guide.

Re: Apple and Google Face Growing Revolt Over App Store ‘Tax’

#320

Post by dcole2929 »

xoa wrote: post #315
notafraudster wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not follow. Even in a system where 3 stars means excellent, 4 stars means once in a lifetime, and 5 stars means Platonic Ideal, I'm still going to look for restaurants (or drivers or network routers or whatever the thing is) that are as close to 5* as possible. Do I subdivide between 4.45 and 4.47 stars? No. But in general I'm going to sort my results by some measure of quality. I'm also optimizing over oth…

I don't think you've thought this through entirely, primarily because your analysis here though misses out on a cost function for stars. > I'm definitely not going to voluntarily get worse food so I can protest the idea of ratings. Yeah, but most people (maybe including you) certainly will "voluntarily get worse food" if you consider the price difference sufficient. In a system where 3 stars means good or excellent i…

Read this story in December when it happened and was absolutely shocked but it makes so much sense.

https://www.eater.com/2017/12/27/16821648/chef-returns-miche...

Post reply on HN