The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.” • Hacker News Board

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#311

Post by CobrastanJorji » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 9:29 PM UTC

greggman wrote: post #294

geebee wrote: post #12

I'm largely in agreement with this Vox piece, but I think there's much more to say in defense of libraries as well. I have a friend who found a red envelope with some money in it in a book that he'd checked out of the library. He figured it belonged to whoever had checked the book out earlier, so he went into the branch and mentioned it. They said that they could find out the last person to read the book, but no more…

I haven't been to a library in 30 years or so but it used to be that the list of people who borrowed the book were written in a piece of paper in the book itself. So yes, I can imagine when it was normal to be able to know who borrowed a book last. This was also common in Japan as it's important to the plot of the movie "Whispers of the Heart" (English title)

In my city, the libraries post signs that, immediately after you return a book and pay any late fees, they destroy all records that you ever checked any books out.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#312

Post by jayd16 » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #12

I'm largely in agreement with this Vox piece, but I think there's much more to say in defense of libraries as well. I have a friend who found a red envelope with some money in it in a book that he'd checked out of the library. He figured it belonged to whoever had checked the book out earlier, so he went into the branch and mentioned it. They said that they could find out the last person to read the book, but no more…

This is just nostalgia at play. When you borrow a book your name goes on the slip with a timestamp. The slip is reused until its full and then its thrown away. If the slip never got full it would most likely never be replaced. Anyone who checked out the book could read the slip.

Policies haven't gotten much worse. The ease of data aggregation has simply gotten much better.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#313

Post by kasey_junk » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #296

kasey_junk wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait nothing about that Atlantic article suggests people are funding libraries less because of book boxes? I'd be shocked if there was a correlation there (I'm not at all shocked by the correlation with book boxes and affluent neighborhoods). Also as an aside, if you are thinking about doing a book box there is no need to give the littlefreelibrary organization money. You can just put one up.

It becomes another quiver in the arguments of small-government zealots. Why do we need social services when good Christians donate to charity? Why do we need public transit when Lyft and Uber are here to save the day? A more pertinent link: https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/2018/01/02/question-li... > But Hale and Schmidt point to at least one place where Little Free Libraries are seen as a substitute for true pu…

Again in both of those places the book boxes were reactions to changes in the library funding not causes.

I see the argument could be made. I’m wondering how often it is.

And I’d be shocked if it was ever made by people who are housing book boxes. Quite the opposite I’d bet they were generally strong proponents of public libraries.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#314

Post by groby_b » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #26

Sharlin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I read a library-related discussion on HN, one of the sentiments expressed was basically ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Boggles the mind. There was also a bizarre comment about libraries being only funded to keep a bunch of otherwise useless civil servants employed.

Let me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man

I'd be very curious where you get free computers, free electricity, and free WiFi. Plus shelter from the environment.

Oh. Right. That'd be the library.

And the steelman is a bit weak in its limbs - you could certainly make the argument that the point of original libraries wasn't the scarcity issue, but the discoverability issue. ("Just travel to Alexandria" is almost certainly not significantly cheaper than paying a scribe to create a copy)

We could also argue that they're the precursors of modern universities, because they offered a central place for scholars to gather.

Both - building a community, and making knowledge more discoverable - are still major purposes for today's libraries. (If you thought searching the Internet for info is helpful, try a librarian)

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#315

Post by UncleEntity » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 10:05 PM UTC

yontherubicon wrote: post #293

I must say I'm rather dissappointed in the writing quality of someone who purports to be an MFA candidate in Creative NonFiction. Though this may be more the fault of the blogstyle medium than antyhing else. It is still better than the middle-school level writing of the editorial the author is responding to. As for the points made therein, I'm a bit disgusted. The library was conceived as a place for anyone to go to…

> Furthermore, Miss Oliver's argument, that we should keep the libraries for the homeless and the addicts jettisons the role of the library as a community center.

A lot of homeless people are just having a bit of bad luck and a few steps in the right direction will have them be non-homeless people is short order. If you live paycheck to paycheck and then don't have a paycheck anymore then things go bad real quick.

> How can one be comfortable leaving their children at a library when 75% of the patrons are current/former addicts and or homeless?

The main Phoenix library has a whole floor dedicated to teens and apparently enforce it as I heard some "homeless addicts" talking about getting kicked off the floor really quickly the last time I was there.

It makes a lot more sense now.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#316

Post by _xzxj » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 10:10 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #12

I'm largely in agreement with this Vox piece, but I think there's much more to say in defense of libraries as well. I have a friend who found a red envelope with some money in it in a book that he'd checked out of the library. He figured it belonged to whoever had checked the book out earlier, so he went into the branch and mentioned it. They said that they could find out the last person to read the book, but no more…

> Can you imagine Netflix or Amazon, Google or Facebook behaving this way? Could be that I'm from an older generation, but there was a time when people considered the idea of an institution having a long and complete list of everything you've read more than creepy, it was terrifying.

Wasn't that more or less part of the plot of either SE7EN or Along Came a Spider (or maybe some other late-90s procedural thriller)? tl;dr they tracked down the suspect because the NSA or FBI was secretly keeping records of library checkouts.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#317

Post by mcguire » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 10:10 PM UTC

greggman wrote: post #294

geebee wrote: post #12

I'm largely in agreement with this Vox piece, but I think there's much more to say in defense of libraries as well. I have a friend who found a red envelope with some money in it in a book that he'd checked out of the library. He figured it belonged to whoever had checked the book out earlier, so he went into the branch and mentioned it. They said that they could find out the last person to read the book, but no more…

I haven't been to a library in 30 years or so but it used to be that the list of people who borrowed the book were written in a piece of paper in the book itself. So yes, I can imagine when it was normal to be able to know who borrowed a book last. This was also common in Japan as it's important to the plot of the movie "Whispers of the Heart" (English title)

I think it's been longer that 30 years; the only thing I remember on the check-out slip was the due date.

Which was fascinating: "Wow, no one has checked this out in a decade!"

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#318

Post by geebee » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 10:22 PM UTC

yontherubicon wrote: post #306

geebee wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a downside of the angle this article took. It makes the case for libraries on the grounds that they offer a place for addicts and homeless to be safe and sheltered and get basic support in accessing services. That's valuable, but it makes a library sound like a place where social workers deal with poverty and other social ills and field questions about how and where to get help. And while many people would s…

I am 100% in favor of public libraries, and I think that the ones we have are too ill stocked, particularly in their classics sections. Necessarily, I am in favor of increasing funding. However, my response to this article was "Let's just get rid of the things." An unsafe library is a useless one.

Yeah... this article defended libraries on the grounds that they are simultaneously a great place for kids to have story time, a safe place for teens, and a place where 2/3s are homeless, struggling with addiction, or recovering from addiction.

Now, we don't know the actual breakdown of that 2/3s group, and there certainly are homeless people (including homeless children) who are not addicts and benefit immensely from the public library system. But it's not a great sales pitch to tell people that children's story time will be colocated in an area populated largely by "current and receiving addicts", and people who are 100% in favor of paying for meth addiction treatment centers may reasonably question why we'd store our large and expensive public book collection there.

Keep in mind, if libraries feel unsafe (perhaps because they are unsafe), wealthy people will find somewhere else for story time and books, it's the low income populations that will be denied this essential resource.

This is partly why, in my previous comment, I wanted to emphasize that many of the branch libraries around SF absolutely do feel safe, and are very welcoming and clean places for kids.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#319

Post by Fricken » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 10:30 PM UTC

glup wrote: post #114

Fricken wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My local libraries are converting into makerspaces. They have green screens, sound studios, mac pros with Adobe creative suite software, 3D printers, Lego mindstorms, and a bunch of other stuff. Knowledge that can be printed is now abundant, but vernacular knowledge remains scarce, and the libraries in my city are becoming a storehouse for that knowledge. It's pretty cool.

out of interest, what city?

Edmonton.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#320

Post by mmirate » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 10:30 PM UTC

neuromantik8086 wrote: post #244

As someone who works in an academic library (which has very different needs from a public library), while I would disagree that libraries need "disruption" (which conjures up imagery of a librarian shushing me in the stacks for talking), there is a real need for tech talent. Most techies are lured away from programming for libraries by the private sector, which leaves us with an overabundance of clunky, expensive sof…

Simple supply and demand, really.

The same skills that can provide software which - if the right people tell the right politicians the right things about it - could save some amount of librarians' labor ... can also provide software that will wow a VC enough to throw enough money to far outweigh the librarians' labor.

On the other hand, if enough people tell enough of the right politicians the right things, then the number of librarians nationwide using the software just might become high enough to swing the comparison the other way.

But until then, nobody in their right mind should be paying a programmer enough to convince them to work for a library (presuming that the programmer is also in their right mind, which is generally required in order for the resulting software to not be dogshit).