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YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

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Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#311

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

the_grue wrote: post #63
wqnt wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand it correctly, it is only discrimination if employer cannot demonstrate the criteria are needed for work performance. Race and gender are not related to performance in most work categories. In the case of body types in sports, they are.

And so are problem-solving skills, relevant experience and education in STEM. Is it anyone's fault that white/asian males happen to have more of it than other groups?

I get relevant experience, but are saying that general problem solving skills are race based?

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#312

Post by znpy »

I came back to this thread to say that this issue is very peculiar because if Youtube/Google can be this picky about candidates (junior/low experience candidates in particular) maybe this STEM/Tech shortage is not so real as they often try to make it look.

Maybe all this effort agains an hypotetical STEM/Tech "shortage" is just to drive down tech employees salaries in the long term.

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#313

Post by viridian »

Mithaldu wrote: post #302
viridian wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Original sin is a heinous concept, and so are blood feuds, and this sounds like both. If your father was a violent degenerate and arsonist, would you comfortable paying society back for a portion of his crimes? It seems like that is what you are asking of people as 'better than nothing'. I'm not being hyperbolic either, your logic, applied to criminal law would condemn me to suffer due to the actions of a person I ha…

You seem to be happy to ignore that the larger context is this: Non-white people are discriminated against because society as a whole accuses their parents as a whole of being degenerates. > If your father was a violent degenerate and arsonist, would you comfortable paying society back for a portion of his crimes? I'm a german. Ask me about the amount of paying back my entire life has consisted of. -- You're also vee…

Just to be clear, holding modern Germans accountable for the actions of the third reich is also absurd, and and I would speak to defend you from those sorts of attacks.

The sins of the father should not condemn his children.

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#314

Post by GCU-Empiricist »

sin7 wrote: post #300
GCU-Empiricist wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percentage of those populations have the requisite secondary education and or experience (coding, statistics, marketing, electrical engineering) to work at Google? Before you try to just match up a general population to a workforce let's at least try to have a representative sample of what the "pool of qualified applicants" looks like.

I assume you are saying that Blacks and Hispanics will not meet the educational standards. Asians will and they are under represented. The level of the problem doesn't matter. Working at Google is an elite job. We could go a level lower to Stanford. Asians are under represented at Stanford. We could go down a level to an elite California High School. Asians are still under represented. Blacks and Hispanics are really…

> If the pool of qualified applicants does not match the general population, then somewhere the qualification process failed.

That's an interesting conclusion, statistically and as a societal commentary. Assuming for a second we take your conclusion as given, and we look at the legal liability question that someone in alphabet legal or HR has to be thinking about when the make hiring policy decisions: which population should their workforce be representative of: the base population, or the population of qualified applicants?

Edit: >I assume you are saying that Blacks and Hispanics will not meet the educational standards. Asians will and they are under represented.

I don't care I'm here for the legalities and statistics discussions, see my other comments here about judging people based on melanin or Genetics. It's silly where it isn't insulting to reduce a real person based on their inclusion/exclusion to poorly defined groups with little to no impact on actual ability to perform/qualify.

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#315

Post by Mithaldu »

viridian wrote: post #313
Mithaldu wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be happy to ignore that the larger context is this: Non-white people are discriminated against because society as a whole accuses their parents as a whole of being degenerates. > If your father was a violent degenerate and arsonist, would you comfortable paying society back for a portion of his crimes? I'm a german. Ask me about the amount of paying back my entire life has consisted of. -- You're also vee…

Just to be clear, holding modern Germans accountable for the actions of the third reich is also absurd, and and I would speak to defend you from those sorts of attacks. The sins of the father should not condemn his children.

I appreciate the thought. However i do think that it has ultimately made germany as a whole a better country, so i don't entirely agree. Then again i also don't wholly disagree. There are plenty situations and cases where children absolutely should not suffer for parents' sins. I think it must be considered in each case, and especially so if the children derived benefits from the sins.

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#316

Post by cargo8 »

whatyoucantsay wrote: post #203
aqsheehy wrote: post #54

Shouldn't the demographics of new google hires look roughly like the demographics of university graduates? If say 80% of graduates are men, how could google hit gender parity without discriminating?

Only if you believe that uni credentials are synonymous with capability.

Yes and no – Google is (used to be, at least) particularly stringent about requiring a degree moreso than other tech co's

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#317

Post by cargo8 »

nine_k wrote: post #173
striking wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can try to invite a wider audience to apply. Many firms just hire based on a short list of posh colleges and thus inherit whatever racial statistics apply to them. But it's possible to look for candidates of all kinds, to expand internship programs, to go to job fairs at inner-city colleges, and so on. That really only applies to junior personnel, though. I'm not sure what you would do for hiring more experienced…

This sure makes sense. Invite a wider audience, go an extra mile to reach those who could meet the requirements but prejudices or other adverse conditions make it hard for them. This is an opposite to narrowing your audience, because certain people need not apply. I mean, I think employers should be able to introduce whatever filters they need for the job requirements ("our dance group only accepts ladies with prior…

They do this already at a fairly large scale, for example the BOLD internship and development program where the goal is to "expose historically underrepresented students in this field to career opportunities in the industry." [https://www.google.com/about/careers/students/bold.html]

These programs are fantastic, and I think a great (albeit no silver bullet) strategy to grant greater OPPORTUNITY to underrepresented groups who may never be exposed to CompSci & Tech industries.

Things that are discussed in this article (if true) are clearly about reaching equal REPRESENTATION more than opportunity – and yeah, that's very disappointing since at the end of the day the only way to do that with immediate gratification is discrimination. (pipeline & societal problems don't get fixed overnight)

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#318

Post by r00fus »

stcredzero wrote: post #118
r00fus wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happens all the time in recruiting. Companies leave candidates hanging indefinitely. Hell, I've had it happen to me even for an internal position at a company I've worked for.

It used to be that this was just not done. However, the Bay Area and Silicon Valley seem to have adopted much degraded standards. When I was young, a company that did such things would have been marking itself as being comprised of immoral rubes.

Are you sure you aren't pining for a non-existent past? Or is it due to changes in recruiting practices (e.g. using mostly contract "talent partners")

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#319

Post by cargo8 »

fzeroracer wrote: post #124
nv-vn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what about making it name-blind?

It solves a little bit of the issue. But software development in general has been far from a 100% merit-focused occupation; networking and having people that can get a foot in the door for you is often far more important than your explicit skill level. That entire process amplifies both unconscious biases and discrepancies of economic status. People without economic means to network, made worse by prejudices and expe…

You are right, however that is a systemic bias in equal opportunity – not representation.

Foot in the door is a huge step, and it's totally okay for companies to push initiatives that allow more minorities to get their foot in the door / exposure to the company and industry. It's not okay for them to push that agenda in assessment to reach better distribution numbers in representation.

Re: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Males, Lawsuit Says

#320

Post by Const-me »

Mithaldu wrote: post #264
danieltillett wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are actually lots of ways. The most obvious way is to secondary screen using a external party all rejected candidates to make sure that the best candidates was selected. This will also provide you with political cover when you don’t just hire people on the basis of their skin color.

How do you know that external party isn't also biased?

They can only be biased if they know race/gender/etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment

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