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How Google Chrome’s ad blocker works

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Re: How Google Chrome’s ad blocker works

#311
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't really talking about the 10% savings thing, so I'm not sure how this is relevant to what I said? I do agree that the malware risk that current ad systems cause is bad, and it would probably be good if consumers behaved in such a way that the sort of ad systems that are a malware risk were no longer more financially viable. However, I don't think I have any substantial objection to the style of ads on project…

I think that most ads aren't leading people who desire a product to that product -- they are creating desire for products that people don't really need. Most of the ads I see at the moment are on YouTube/Gmail and they are for things like junk food, "make money online" scam artists, and other garbage. Sometimes there are unblockable content ads on news sites that pretend to be news, but are really just paid content.

It certainly seems true that the vast majority of times that some person sees some ad, that that impression is not connecting a person who desires some product to that product, and furthermore, I quite doubt that that could plausibly be otherwise, at least assuming any substantial amount of people seeing advertisements.

However, I don't think that by itself is sufficient for a condemnation of advertisement in general.

If the cost to the viewer (and the advertiser) of the ad impressions which [do not connect a consumer desiring a product to that product] is sufficiently low, then it could be possible for both consumers and advertisers to benefit on average. (Not to say that it is currently the case that they do.)

This is true even if the advertisers were to only benefit from the ad impressions which connected a consumer desiring a product desiring a product to said product.

So, I guess the question would be, whether or not the costs to consumers (and advertisers) when [not connecting people desiring a product to the product] can be made sufficiently small to make it a mutual benefit.

Of course, if that by itself was enough to lead to a mutual benefit, one could wonder why it would be included as part of something else that the consumer wishes to look at, rather than just being something that consumers might look at separately from other content. One possible reason could be that seeing it as part of other desirable content decreases the cost to the consumer when the product is not one that they desire. I'm not sure how much credence to assign to that reason.

Thinking on this, I suspect that direct mutual benefit between the advertisers and consumers would not in practice be a sufficient reason by itself for (e.g.) websites to tend to have ads on them, even if ads were restricted to have many fewer problems for consumers.

So, I think that it is likely that if not for the inconvenience of removing ads from websites they view, the main reason that consumers might deign to allow the ads to display on the webpages they view would be because of the benefit it provides to the owner of the website.

So, I guess I would recommend blocking ads which create more of a cost to you than you consider worth it in order to provide the benefit to website owners get from the ads being displayed to people who reason similarly to you?

It is my opinion that for a certain fairly restricted set of types of ads, that the average cost to me is sufficiently low that I am willing to incur it.

However, don't get me wrong: I definitely support the freedom to block whatever ads you wish (unless you have made a contract to do otherwise or something like that).

I think that ideally, the only ads that should be profitable should be the ones which impose extremely low costs on the viewer, and occasionally provide some benefit to the viewer (even if this is rare enough that the only reason the viewer deigns to see them is so that the website owner benefits).

Re: How Google Chrome’s ad blocker works

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no need to be condescending, and there's a much simpler solution to avoid being influenced by ads. It's called making data-driven decisions. Step 1: Find a set of products that solve your problem based on independent reviews, e.g. what Stiftung Warentest writes. Step 2: Use several price comparison engines, e.g. idealo, Preispiraten, Hardwareschotte to find the cheapest option for the products. Step 3: Order…

But does anyone actually follow that algorithm 100% faithfully? We are not machines, fortunately.

I'd argue that we and our minds have enough weaknesses in comparison to machines, that it is not fortunate that we aren't more like machines. We'd be far less vulnerable to making the kinds of mistakes that only human minds can make.

Re: How Google Chrome’s ad blocker works

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait. What does retargeting have to do with Amazon’s Engineering culture? Seems like a large leap in logic. Couldn’t it just as easily say “well, that’s Facebook’s caching layer not updating fast enough to remove finished campaigns?”

Its a casualty of their philosophy on code. If the numbers look good it doesn’t matter whose idea it was or how crazy it sounded. They tell you this pretty much at the top of the indoctrination material. It certainly keeps them out of analysis paralysis, no question. But any armchair psychologist can tell you this is essentially numbing. Not listening to your fears or emotions can be as unhealthy as dwelling on them.…

I haven't even interviewed with Amazon, but I'm still curious: outside of "office politics" bullshit, why should an idea ever be judged by who made it or its _a priori_ "apparent craziness", let alone given that it has been tested?

(regardless of the test results; if they were negative then any other concerns are redundant)

Re: How Google Chrome’s ad blocker works

#314
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article states google will block _every_ ad on websites that violate the standard, which means google’s own ads as well.

There are only ~1000 words in that article. Is this the sentence you're referring to? >The Better Ads Standards are a set of rules, one set for desktop and one for mobile, that define unacceptably intrusive, distracting, and annoying advertisement formats. If so, "Better Ad Standards" is orthogonal to "AdSense standards" . Or put another way, "unacceptably intrusive, distracting, and annoying" is orthogonal to blocki…

> Starting on February 15, in line with the Coalition's guidelines, Chrome will remove all ads from sites that have a "failing" status in the Ad Experience Report for more than 30 days. All of this information can be found in the Ad Experience Report Help Center, and our product forums are available to help address any questions or feedback.

It could not be more clear all ads will be removed from failing sites.

https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2017/12/better-ads

Re: How Google Chrome’s ad blocker works

#315
post #310
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If webpage owners don't make money off of a browser, they'll stop testing/building their webpage against that browser or even block access from it, leading to broken webpages in that broken, which is not at all in the interest of users.

Plenty of browsers are not supported/tested on, yet they work just fine because they implement web standards.

Yeah, they work fine 90% of the time. But no web browser implements all webstandards and even less so implements them without bugs.

Google is also adding more and more proprietary APIs to their browser, which Mozilla will not be able to implement (Chromecast, Google Earth, Hangouts) or is adding pseudo-webstandards, which have been publicly specified, but they did not push it through the standardization process to reach an agreement with other browser vendors (e.g. WebSQL, File Storage API).

You're also saying "plenty of browsers". There's hardly any browsers that don't use Trident/EdgeHTML, Gecko or KHTML/WebKit/Blink. If they use one of those, then there's the major browsers IE/Edge, Firefox or Safari/Chrome that webpage owners will test/build against and as a result also cause it to work on that fork, meaning that yeah, those forks can easily implement an ad blocker without much to fear.

But that's not the case, if you are such a major browser yourself. Then webpage owners will notice and will not have any reason to optimize against your browser engine anyways.

Re: How Google Chrome’s ad blocker works

#316

Full disclosure: I work in ad-tech. 1. Why do you guys downvote civil, informative posts that just happen to be philosophically different than yours? Seems anti-knowledge, and a net negative to HN. 2. What do you think pays for the internet? This is the first time I've ever engaged in a discussion, but I've been lurking for a year or two, and at least half of the links shared in the comments are ad-supported. Probabl…

The notion that advertisements pay for websites is entirely fabricated. Recent research shows massive amounts of fraud with the involvement of the ad industry which eats through the money flowing through the ecosystem. See https://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/ad-industry-insiders... and https://blog.confiant.com/uncovering-2017s-largest-malvertis... .

I don't see how the two links you posted supports the assertion that the "notion that advertisements pay for websites is entirely fabricated."

First link is about fraud against advertisers, selling them fake ad impressions. Second link is about a sophisticated scheme to deliver malware to the end users using the ad ecosystem.

How does that dispute the fact that people who have websites can profit from putting ads on them?

Re: How Google Chrome’s ad blocker works

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are real issues with non-annoying ads, like tracking, but I don't think most people know or care very much about that. I speak to a lot of people who find "retargeting" deeply creepy. The awareness of the problem is there. However, they don't understand what causes it, how it works or that it's even possible to stop it.

Its also just bad salesmanship. There was an electronics store called CompUSA. I didn’t always shop there but I did buy Christmas presents there. Then one year they started using transparent shopping bags. Which means you can’t shop for anybody that is on the trip with you, or lives with you. It made it a hassle to keep a secret and I just gave up. So now if I am looking at jewelry for my partner, ads for the exact t…

> If someone just bought a new TV, then showing then TV ads is pretty much the dumbest move you can make. The target is at an all time low for probability of purchasing that item. And worse, you risk triggering buyer’s remorse. Repeatedly.

While I agree with your subjective experience -- right after buying product X I'm done, I wanna look at other stuff -- from a marketing/advertising perspective repeated ad exposures right after purchase actually do a lot to eliminate buyers remorse and reinforce our decision making. We're creatures of emotion first, logic second.

Seeing car ads after buying a car, unless it's the same model for less money, make you feel better about your purchase. I don't think that's why it happens online, but that's no small part of it in print and TV.

Re: How Google Chrome’s ad blocker works

#318
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are only ~1000 words in that article. Is this the sentence you're referring to? >The Better Ads Standards are a set of rules, one set for desktop and one for mobile, that define unacceptably intrusive, distracting, and annoying advertisement formats. If so, "Better Ad Standards" is orthogonal to "AdSense standards" . Or put another way, "unacceptably intrusive, distracting, and annoying" is orthogonal to blocki…

> Starting on February 15, in line with the Coalition's guidelines, Chrome will remove all ads from sites that have a "failing" status in the Ad Experience Report for more than 30 days. All of this information can be found in the Ad Experience Report Help Center, and our product forums are available to help address any questions or feedback. It could not be more clear all ads will be removed from failing sites. https…

>"from failing sites."

Again, I wasn't talking about "failing _websites_". I was talking about ad serving _domains_.

You've lost track of what the conversation was about and the substance of what I was responding to. Please re-read the previous post to reset.[1]

That post by d2wa was claiming a direct cause-&-effect blocking based purely on entries in EasyList.

I replied that the article makes no such irrefutable claim and that he was over-reading something that wasn't there.

You, on the other hand, are talking about "Better Ad Standards"[2] which is orthogonal to my reply to d2wa. Your repeated citation of it actually muddles the topic because the Google's longstanding approved rules for the correct layout of AdSense already adheres to "Better Ad Standards".

To restate the different conversations in pseudo-code...

Argument by d2wa:

  if (EasyList_entry_exists("AdSense"))	
    block();
Argument by you (ec109685):

  BetterAdStandardsViolation = popup || autoplaysound || prestitialcountdown || largesticky;
  if (BetterAdStandardsViolation)  
    block();
Also see comment subtree[3] from Raymond Hill (uBlock maintainer that uses EasyList). Based on that, the pseudo-code would be:

  if (BetterAdStandardsViolation)  {
    if (EasyList_entry_exists)	
      block();  // this line of code unreachable by correct use of AdSense 
  }
 
In summary...

EasyList is not the final authority on blocking AdSense. Since Google's existing guidelines for proper AdSense layout already complies with "Coalition for Better Ads", the existence of AdSense in EasyList is not relevant because the EasyList filter is selectively applied to failing websites. In other words, Chrome's ad blocker will not block AdSense the same way as uBlock.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16297718

[2] https://www.betterads.org/standards/

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16298182

Re: How Google Chrome’s ad blocker works

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any thoughts on how web search should be funded, in an ideal world, if ads are inherently repugnant?

Web search shouldn't be centralized or closed source, it should be made of the same stuff Linux is. Whatever Linux does to keep existing, there should be a community driven web search project that mimics it.

How could openness coexist with adversarial SOE? Genuine question -- I think it's possible, but how?

For example, "Optimizers" currently have to guess at what Google is doing, but if the system was open source, they would know exactly.

For another example, modern cryptography actually benefits from openness. Is there a similar possibility for Search?

Re: How Google Chrome’s ad blocker works

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. And you can see this in a lot of what Google does. Most people think Google's push for HTTPS, both in Chrome and SEO rankings, is somehow related to privacy. It's not. It's about net neutrality and it's about third parties being able to switch out Google's ads for their own, on-the-fly, using a middleman. I interviewed with a stealth-level startup a few years back. They were developing a product, similar to a Wi…

> I interviewed with a stealth-level startup a few years back. They were developing a product, similar to a WiFi router, that would be installed on premise and sit there, filtering out Google/Facebook/etc. ads and replacing them with ads that the owner of the box wanted. You can imagine this box being installed in Starbucks, airports, libraries, and everywhere else. Funny, I was a similar boat once. They weren't a st…

The intrusive reading of emails is exactly what gmail does, isn't it?
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