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Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

nytimes.com

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Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#311

Post by tim333 »

kelvin0 wrote: post #130

My question is: what is the value of a Bitcoin? It looks to me like a great way to transfer currency and facilitate exchange of goods, but not much more than that. So 'investing' in this digital currency itself does not make much sense to me, because intrinsically it has no 'real' value. I might be misinformed about the subject, in which case I would gladly like to be shown my error. For example, why don't I invest i…

The price is somewhat determined by the cost of mining in the same way that the cost to buy a chunk of some obscure element is determined by the cost of getting it, not the utility.

Want a gram of californium and it'll cost you even if it's not much use for anything.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#312

Post by tim333 »

marcandre wrote: post #165

I'm wondering how many people are shorting USDT on Kraken? The potential downside is having to pay interest. The upside is 100% win. With enough short position, Tether will run out of funds and the price will have to crash. Disclosure: I'm short USDT.

I managed to short $100 but then couldn't execute on any more. I'd be short boat loads if I could.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#313

Post by tim333 »

jandrese wrote: post #259
ifdefdebug wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just tried to short sell USDT on Kraken. Response: Canceled - Insufficient Margin. This means "that the exchange's margin pool for that currency is currently used up" [1]. So this might give you an idea to start with... [1] https://support.kraken.com/hc/en-us/articles/217696017-Insuf...

Or basically: No remaining suckers available for this transaction.

Pretty much. Shorting usually relies on people having deposited the asset (USDT) with the broker (Kraken). When you short the broker sells some of the other person's asset in the market in the basis you'll buy it back if the other person wants their asset back. Presumably they've run out of USDT to sell in that manner.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#314

Post by tim333 »

cgyulay wrote: post #195

Genuine question: whether or not Tether is fraudulent, how much can a currency with a market cap of ~$2B affect the greater ecosystem, or even just Bitcoin with a purported market cap of ~$150B? Obviously a scandal of this magnitude in a major cryptocurrency is bad for the whole environment for a host of reasons...but if Tether is really just a ~$2B fabricated cash injection, how much could it really prop up BTC?

It's hard to say because so much depends on investor psychology. But if they act to prop things up on the dips it looks like it just goes up and then other dumb speculators like me pile in.

Some academics studied manipulation at MtGox and "the paper demonstrates that the suspicious trading activity likely caused the unprecedented spike in the USD-BTC exchange rate in late 2013, when the rate jumped from around $150 to more than $1,000 in two months." Not sure how much actual cash was involved there but "bitcoins (BTC) valued at $188 million were fraudulently acquired."

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#315

Post by simias »

conanbatt wrote: post #300
Daishiman wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History has shown that in certain matter people will, over and over again, commit systemically wrong choices. So no, in some things we're all in this ship together and as long as that's the case I want people to not collectively fuck things up.

Thats what you want. Why do you feel entitled to make other people do what you want?

Why do you think seat belts are mandatory? Apply the same reasoning to your question.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#316

Post by kadenshep »

conanbatt wrote: post #300
Daishiman wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History has shown that in certain matter people will, over and over again, commit systemically wrong choices. So no, in some things we're all in this ship together and as long as that's the case I want people to not collectively fuck things up.

Thats what you want. Why do you feel entitled to make other people do what you want?

The only thing that makes him entitled is learning from history and being able to reason about pretty elementary models in his head.

Why do people with your types of opinion always make it wholly personal, just to try to weasel their way around a subject?

Like, here's another comment you made:

>I like to compare Bitcoin to Land.

Just stop. There is so much fundamentally wrong with that analogy at face value it beggars belief that you are being sincere.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#317

Post by conanbatt »

s73ver_ wrote: post #284
conanbatt wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And you agreed to abide by the laws of a jurisdiction by living there. Otherwise, what's to stop you from saying, "I never agreed not to kill people"? Nobody agreed to not kill people either. Thats why killing is also legal in many circumstances. Also arguing that we all agreed to the rules there in would mean that if slavery were legal it would be ok, becase we all agreed to it. But thats another topic. The point…

"Also arguing that we all agreed to the rules there in would mean that if slavery were legal it would be ok, becase we all agreed to it" No. That's a poor argument that, in this case, falsely equivocates slavery with financial regulation. "I dont want to ask the SEC any permission to buy tethers." That's not what's happening in the least. But if Tether is a scam, then it will be shut down, as it should be. And no amo…

> No. That's a poor argument that, in this case, falsely equivocates slavery with financial regulation.

You say its a poor argument, but you dont say why.

> That's not what's happening in the least. But if Tether is a scam, then it will be shut down, as it should be. And no amount of "freedom" will justify running a scam on other people.

Tether will crash itself if it doesnt have the money its supposed to have, we don't need the sec for that ,the same way the SEC didnt start the 2008 meltdown or Enron's demise. Its even more egregious if you consider tether is not in the US and affects non-US citizens the most. So why has the SEC the power to intervene in other countries with people that haven't elected them?

Its purely an act on a position of power, not on agreed rules, and thats some of the spirit that sorrounds crypto. Crypo will be more mature if it deals with this problems without government intervention.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#318

Post by duxup »

blueprint wrote: post #127
duxup wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amazing transparency of the crypto tech has been overshadowed by a total lack of transparency in every other way.

You mean the transparency of private individuals and organizations managing their own funds? Ok, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are entitled to and able to access that information and that it is somehow more available in _existing_ centralized systems. How are you going to enforce or even verify the degree of a centralized governance system's transparency? You can't. So your comment is somewhat dece…

I'm not sure what you are saying. Obviously there is no "entitled" or enforcement. The difficulty in doing that makes it no less a problem. It does contrast with what seemed to be a big Bitcoin positive or selling point (call it what you want) transparency.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#319

Post by nickbauman »

tim333 wrote: post #307
wcoenen wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you know what money really is and how it actually works OK, I'll bite. What is money really and how does it actually work?

>What is money really and how does it actually work? On of the most interesting ideas I've read on this is from Debt The First 5000 Years, written by an anthropologist who took the approach of studying how societies actually use money rather than the economists approach of coming up with theories without much looking at real people. Basically he says the idea that it originated from barter is pretty much never found…

The taxation example you cite is key. That the way history tells the story is that money was invented by state actors to finance military power. This endeavor has the side effect of creating a market economy. So states create markets, which implies markets require states. And the military power is as much turned inward than outward: you end up with police protection over the transaction coming ultimately from state actors.

Over time cryptocurrencies will adopt all these features of government regulation and police protection over the transactions if it is to become ubiquitous. So, just another analog of any other money system we already have.

Re: Worries Grow That the Price of Bitcoin Is Being Propped Up

#320

Post by zackmorris »

maratd wrote: post #296
zackmorris wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that money is a measure of inefficiency. Say for example you hire a mechanic to fix your car. You pay the mechanic's shop for parts and labor. The cost of parts represents inefficiencies in how they're manufactured, the markups of middlemen, the high cost of raw materials from nonrecycled sources, etc etc. Labor represents your lack of knowledge about how to fix your own car, plus the time involved to fix…

Really? That’s depressing. Money can be anything you want it to be, so how about this. Money = thank you points You give it to people you’re thankful to, who either did something nice for you or gave you something you wanted.

Ya I like that better too. I'd like to see us move beyond a world of artificial scarcity to one where everyone's basic needs are met and people can focus on self-actualization. If people want a mansion, great, they can work for it. But if people want to be left alone so they can explore the meaning of life, then they should be free to do so and whatever money is used at that point should go to things that are special. Kind of a Burning Man philosophy maybe?
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