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Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

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Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#311

Post by klmr »

roystonvassey wrote: post #247
hannob wrote: post #152

Small study, probably not preregistered (didn't find anything about it in the description). Likely Publication Bias or p-hacking. I'm starting to get interested when it's been independently replicated.

This is becoming an increasingly worrying trend - to bunk any analysis with a comment on 'small sample size, biases' that somehow moves to the top of the comment pile. Statistically, there is no such thing as a 'small sample size', in isolation. It is always related to the power and effect that the researchers want to work with. Moreover, even if a study is statistically insignificant, it DOES NOT mean that the oppos…

> In this case, for instance, turmeric has been used for medicinal properties in Asian cultures for centuries. Theories of evolution suggest that this wouldn't be the case (and it would've died a natural death), if there wasn't some merit.

That is utter nonsense. To give just one counter-example, bloodletting was used for millennia for conditions where it’s completely ineffective (and, in fact, actively harmful: bloodletting has killed scores of people). In fact, you simply can’t apply an argument from evolution here. Evolution doesn’t optimise for “goodness”. It optimises something (and only over the long term). That “something” can often be positively detrimental to other outcomes, and even to general fitness (e.g. the laryngeal nerve).

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#312

Post by klmr »

azemetre wrote: post #229
ShabbosGoy wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t we? People are living longer than ever before. The issue is in determining effect size. I’m sure some amount of all those things you mentioned is “good” in some sense, but in what quantity and for how long?

People are "living longer" because child mortality has fallen dramatically.

Not only. Life expectancy has increased in every age group percentile. But the effect is obviously not due to tea, coffee and turmeric. Rather, it’s due, mainly, to (a) better general nutrition, (b) better hygiene, and (c) modern medicine, especially antibiotics and vaccines.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#313

Post by klmr »

dumbneurologist wrote: post #305
hannob wrote: post #152

Small study, probably not preregistered (didn't find anything about it in the description). Likely Publication Bias or p-hacking. I'm starting to get interested when it's been independently replicated.

agree that replication is important and that it's too early to believe fully, but when a study size is small and you still find a difference, then it implies the effect size is large. If you meet statistical significance, then diminishing n means increasing clinical significance.

> but when a study size is small and you still find a difference, then it implies the effect size is large

That’s only true if it holds across multiple studies. Otherwise it might simply be random variability. By your argument, a study with n=4 that showed an effect would imply a huge effect size. No. It implies that the measured signal is highly variable, and that you got lucky on 1:3 odds. Check out regression towards the mean [1].

(Note that if you’ve got a good underlying model of the variability, n=4 can work. In fact, it’s routinely done in specific applications, such as transcriptomics. But even there it’s far from ideal, and it’s supported by a stringent error model.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#314

Post by dumbneurologist »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #250

From the Wikipedia page on Curcumin (section Research): In vitro, curcumin exhibits numerous interference properties which may lead to misinterpretation of results.[3][6][20] Although curcumin has been assessed in numerous laboratory and clinical studies, it has no medical uses established by well-designed clinical research.[21] According to a 2017 review of over 120 studies, curcumin has not been successful in any c…

None of your criticisms from wikipedia pertain to this publication. The paragraph is essentially making the argument that a randomized, double blind (DB), placebo controlled (PC) clinical trial (RCT) is unlikely to show that curcurmin is effective. yet, the published article is exactly that, and shows a statistically measurable impact on a clinically meaningful endpoint: a direct refutation of the paragraph.

the fact the "interference properties" and being an "unstable, reactive, non-bioavailable compound" is subsumed by the study design.

  claims to have studied a bioavailable form of curcumin
This is not really relevant to the claim or conclusions. could it be that the bioavailability matters? maybe. could it be that curcurmin is a trick molecule to study? yes. but come what may, this is direct evidence (not proof) of a cause-effect relationship between this treatment and the outcome.

the only thing this effects is the chance that other forms of curcurmin will be comparable (and it might have consequences for regulatory status by the FDA).

  The study also notes its sample was small
This is a very weak criticism when the study is positive (i.e. shows an effect). when the sample size (and statistical power) of the study is small, you need a BIG EFFECT SIZE to be positive. The fact that the trial was positive actually means that it's more likely to be clinically important, because a big effect size means it protects memory in a dramatic way. This is like penicillin: in the pre-antibiotic era, how many cases of pneumonia do you need to treat in order to be satisfied that penicillin is effective? Not bloody many, because the effect size is so dramatic. Likewise for parachutes. few are the therapies that fall into this category, but when you have an inkling that one does following a DB, PC, RCT, you better pay attention.

So does it need to be replicated? definitely. does the sponsorship matter? definitely; they could have cheated in some way. until then does it make sense to prescribe this to seniors, or encourage them to increase curcurmin in their diet? quite possibly, given the presumably low rate of adverse effects.

Bottom line: this study is not the end-all be-all of curcurmin and memory, but there is legitimate early evidence that the emperor has clothes.

edits: mainly spelling, formatting

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#315

Post by dumbneurologist »

hannob wrote: post #152

Small study, probably not preregistered (didn't find anything about it in the description). Likely Publication Bias or p-hacking. I'm starting to get interested when it's been independently replicated.

Except that it was preregistered, as described in the article.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01383161?cond=NCT0138...

It's great to be skeptical, but it's really lame to be skeptical and lazy. It's a terrible combination that causes patients not to trust their doctors.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#316

Post by cbzbc »

sudhirj wrote: post #222

If this is real, we Indians have the best memory on the planet and the lowest depression in the world. With the UK a close second after the appropriated all out “curry” recipes. Colour me skeptical.

> Colour me skeptical.

Can also be arranged, as long as the colour of sceptical is an off-orange shade.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#317

Post by vanderZwan »

piyh wrote: post #201
hannob wrote: post #152

Small study, probably not preregistered (didn't find anything about it in the description). Likely Publication Bias or p-hacking. I'm starting to get interested when it's been independently replicated.

If every study on tumeric, tea, chocolate, and coffee was fully accurate we'd all be immortal by now.

The problem you describe is a real one, but a bit different than the other criticism raised here so far.

Chocolate has the Mars Company and other Big Sugar companies behind it pushing for justifying chocolate as a "health food" in the public mind. It is very obvious that they are wiling to distort the truth for better sales; people who can ease their conscious about eating unhealthy sweets buy more chocolate[0]. There might be some real effect to eating raw cocoa, but that does not really translate to your average chocolate bar with insane amounts of fat and sugar.

Tea/Coffee is kind of similar, as would be the "drink x glasses of water per day"-advice, which is a distortion of science by bottled water companies (fruits, vegetables and other food contains a ton of water already).

For this reason I also don't buy that salt is safe: there are very strong vested interests in the food industry that want salt to be (considered) safe to sell more food, whereas I cannot see a comparable bias on the "eat less salt"-side.

For this research the situation seems to be have some of the mentioned problems, but not to the same degree:

On the one hand, that tumeric has an in-vitro effect is pretty well established. The issue is that the normal form we put on our food is probably not absorbed in a dosage that has a significant effect. However, this was a trial with a bio-available form, in a high enough dosage, so that obvious flaw is out of the picture.

On the other hand, that bio-available form is a product, so the company behind it wants it to be effective. Still, Big Pharma is under more scrutiny than Big Sugar, so I have cautious hopes this might actually work out in the end (and it won't be sold in the form of calorie-rich sweets at least).

Admittedly, I'm biased here: my grandmother on my mother's side, and my grandfather on my father's side both had Alzheimers (or something very similar to it at least). My parents are now their late sixties, I would really like to see them stay healthy and happy for a few more decades.

[0] https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/10/18/15995478/c...

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#318

Post by pritambaral »

dahidahi1 wrote: post #223
taco_emoji wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how do you actually know if these Ayurvedic practices work without the rigorous trial and error that "Western" science demands? Unless I'm mistaken, the Ayurvedic texts do not contain repeatable evidence of the efficacy of the treatments described within them, nor do they describe plausible explanations of how those treatments work. Whatever truths are contained in Ayurvedic texts are accidental unless they were…

I think you are quite mistaken. The ayurvedic or any of the sciences of ancient Indians use the same trail & error methodologies of modern science. Why should it be any different? A lot of the texts have already been lost, thanks to time, the British & Muslim rule in India. I don't agree there are accidental truths. In India we have been following these for thousands of years. They were not exposed to the Western wor…

> The ayurvedic or any of the sciences of ancient Indians use the same trail & error methodologies of modern science.

Then please show us the studies, and the reproductions. As you said, "Why should it be any different?", and verification via repeatably reproducing results is how science works.

> the British & Muslim rule in India.

That's a bit of off-topic attack that serves no purpose to your argument. If you were trying to make the argument the texts would have been preserved if India had been entirely under Hindu rule, well, that's an entirely different argument that does not validate an "Ayurveda works" claim. In short: "The dog ate my thesis" does not work.

> In India we have been following these for thousands of years.

As have been a lot of rituals and traditions that have been proven to hold no (or worse, negative) benefit. Age serves as a poor proxy for legitimacy.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#319

Post by pritambaral »

dahidahi1 wrote: post #251
Elrac wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to chime in to the growing chorus of HNers trying to explain to you why you're wrong. There's no such thing as "any other science." There is science as developed and practiced by qualified researchers all over the world - including India - and it's all one and the same science, which is a set of protocols for rigorously checking the relevance of what you're seeing, and the huge body of useful human knowledg…

Agreed that there is no "any other science". But human (Western) prejudices have made Vedic sciences (as in science originating from India) the lesser science, which is what I am trying to clarify. The reasons for this prejudice are too many, but it has a religious angle, an angle that the Church has pushed for too long that people have forgotten any other angle. Also the angle of Islamic destruction, which has ensur…

> But human (Western) prejudices have made Vedic sciences (as in science originating from India) the lesser science, which is what I am trying to clarify.

What, exactly, are you talking about here? It'd be better if you could cite examples.

Re: Curry spice turmeric boosts memory by nearly 30%, eases depression, study finds

#320

Post by glangdale »

Elrac wrote: post #237
olympus wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't make that comment. However, I would say that people in their fifties have started to experience age-related decline in numerous areas (memory included). Showing a memory improvement in people 50-80 should be more accurately described as "restoring" their memory rather than "boosting" it, which implies that they now have supranormal memory.

Am in my late 50s, can confirm. Memory, concentration, attention, and a bunch of other faculties, both mental and physical, are trending disgustingly downward. I know there are things I could do to fight it, but motivation is another one of those things going down. f--- it, f--- everything.

Pushing 46, can confirm. Literally just got that thing that screams "maybe you need bifocals not contacts" where nothing close quite comes into focus... basic response is "fuck it, fuck everything" like you say.
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