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Spotify hit with $1.6B copyright lawsuit

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Re: Spotify hit with $1.6B copyright lawsuit

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except a recording is mine permanently and physically

True, but most users don't seem to mind. Arguably, streaming is just a better storage medium for most users. Until the company providing the service screws its customers over, if course. I doubt that possibility weighs very heavily into many consumers' buying choices.

The key difference is your rights, isn't it? After all, this is a legal issue.

I permanently have the right to listen to a CD I own as many times as I want.

With Spotify, as far as I'm aware, they can yank any part of the catalog without anything owed to me as a listener. If I wake up tomorrow and the only thing available is John Cage's 4'33", I have no recourse. Spotify isn't offering me storage space.

Re: Spotify hit with $1.6B copyright lawsuit

#312
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Functionally, for the consumer, streaming is mostly identical to a recording. Want to listen to a song? Press play. The storage just happens to be on some server somewhere.

It's just a really accommodating radio station that always plays your requests, no?

How are jukeboxes licensed?

Re: Spotify hit with $1.6B copyright lawsuit

#314
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's a replicated consensus of all this attributions. Every single company agrees and has a shared database of the rights and the licensing. Riiight. They can't agree on a standard describing their music and licensing now. But blockchain will magically create that shared database out of thin air. BTW. Again. That same word, database. Nothing a relational database couldn't handle with much more ease and efficienc…

> But blockchain will magically create that shared database out of thin air. It won't, and it's a strawman you are setting up. Of course you have to design your business logic and rules and answer all the questions. There's nothing a blockchain, a relational or a nosql database will do for you there. They will give you different options and different tradeoffs. The point here is that this distributed solution has int…

> It won't, and it's a strawman you are setting up.

It wasn't set up by me, was it? Let me remind you:

"Of course, all these questions can be addressed in one way or another with conventional database tech. But blockchain has some undeniable appeal in an application like this."

So far no one has shown that "undeniable appeal". Moreover, every person who roots for blockchain in this conversation comes up with easily refutable claims.

> Of course you have to design your business logic and rules and answer all the questions. There's nothing a blockchain, a relational or a nosql database will do for you there.

Let's see what one of the proponents said: "UMG, Warner, Sony and Spotify cannot share bills for running a common database on AWS today without creating yet another corporation and relinquishing power over the data to it... They are here to revolutionize how existing organizations co-ordinate, enter into contracts with each other, and even allow individuals themselves co-ordinate directly with each other without intermediaries through novel org structures."

And yet. Suddenly. "Oh, you have to agree and design your business logic and rules and answer all the questions." Why the hell would I need blockchain for this?

> You can have a third party with a central relational database that does all that, and all companies trust it. The proposed solution is more akin to a relational database replicated between all interested parties.

Oh wait. Let me remind you: "Every single company agrees and has a shared database of the rights and the licensing."

Moreover, it means that every single company agrees that anyone can just write whatever they want to this database, sure. And probably fork it at some time, splitting it further.

Remind me again, why blockchain?

> No, because you can design a solution where any interested party can join the network and have a copy of the data.

Oh cool. Data is useless without access to it though. Hence, APIs. You are not a programmer, are you?

> I think it's a very pratical way of understanding the oportunities and capabilities that open up with new technology, particulary if you have a knee-jerk reaction such as shown above.

It's not a knee-jerk reaction. It's a healthy scepticism based on experience and actual understanding of some of the inside workings of music industry.

Your "solutions" are basically "let's add blockchain to it because it's this new cool new thing even though I have no idea how it will aid the problem in question". All it does according to you is letting everyone have a copy of some data. Oh my god. I am so sold on this idea :-\

Just count the number of assumptions you make to make this work:

- everyone has to agree to use this shared database

- everyone agrees on a standard way to define songs, define licensing, define song metadata

- everyone agrees to provide exact truthful complete metadata for every song and track they release at any point in time (hey, remember the brain teaser I gave you? Try answering that first)

- everyone agrees to have this shared database as the one and only source of truth even if everyone can write any data to it

- everyone agrees to never under any circumstances fork the database or create competing copies of it (we know how well that worked for Ethereum etc.)

Oh, golly. I sure am sold on the opportunities and capabilities. Blockchain surely "has some undeniable appeal in an application like this." and will "revolutionize how existing organizations co-ordinate, enter into contracts with each other, and even allow individuals themselves co-ordinate directly with each other without intermediaries through novel org structures." "All this without getting into tokens and handling the payments and distribution of royalties on the chain, and other innovations that the capabilities of the blockchain can bring."

BTW. Blockchain cannot handle either payments or royalties. It can hardly handle a few payments without buckling under its own load.

Re: Spotify hit with $1.6B copyright lawsuit

#315
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a really accommodating radio station that always plays your requests, no?

How are jukeboxes licensed?

Guessing that would fall under "performance" as well, but each jukebox would be separately licensed. In the case of something like Spotify, it's n jukeboxes, where n is the number of total users. Of course, that's absurd, since most Spotify accounts are listened to a single user.

I think the reality is that over 20 years after the development of Real Player, we still don't have a good legal framework to discuss streaming.

Re: Spotify hit with $1.6B copyright lawsuit

#316
Seems opportunistic. They file for IPO and this lawsuit comes out at the same time? Almost certainly not a coincidence. This is arguably when Spotify is most vulnerable and when they will be most likely to settle -- investors hate uncertainty, so settling, even for a large amount, would probably be good for the IPO.

Re: Spotify hit with $1.6B copyright lawsuit

#317
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But blockchain will magically create that shared database out of thin air. It won't, and it's a strawman you are setting up. Of course you have to design your business logic and rules and answer all the questions. There's nothing a blockchain, a relational or a nosql database will do for you there. They will give you different options and different tradeoffs. The point here is that this distributed solution has int…

> It won't, and it's a strawman you are setting up. It wasn't set up by me, was it? Let me remind you: "Of course, all these questions can be addressed in one way or another with conventional database tech. But blockchain has some undeniable appeal in an application like this." So far no one has shown that "undeniable appeal". Moreover, every person who roots for blockchain in this conversation comes up with easily r…

> It wasn't set up by me, was it?

Yeah, you are the one claiming that blockchain has to somehow identify and categorize songs automatically in order for it to be in anyway useful. The undeniable appeal claimed is about how organizations coordinate and share information.

> Moreover, it means that every single company agrees that anyone can just write whatever they want to this database, sure.

No, you can design it with whichever rules you want on who can write, on what's written, and how the consensus is determined if that information is accepted.

> Oh cool. Data is useless without access to it though. Hence, APIs. You are not a programmer, are you?

This makes no sense. If I have a copy of the data, I can access it. Yes, I'm a programmer.

> Just count the number of assumptions you make to make this work:

Aren't those mostly the same assumptions you have to make to have music licensing work at all? Through an intermediary, on a relational database somewhere? Everyone has to agree to use this system, to provide truthful metadata, and use this intermediary's information as the only source of truth?

> BTW. Blockchain cannot handle either payments or royalties. It can hardly handle a few payments without buckling under its own load.

Again, don't take Bitcoin's limitations for Blockchain limitations.

Re: Spotify hit with $1.6B copyright lawsuit

#318
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It won't, and it's a strawman you are setting up. It wasn't set up by me, was it? Let me remind you: "Of course, all these questions can be addressed in one way or another with conventional database tech. But blockchain has some undeniable appeal in an application like this." So far no one has shown that "undeniable appeal". Moreover, every person who roots for blockchain in this conversation comes up with easily r…

> It wasn't set up by me, was it? Yeah, you are the one claiming that blockchain has to somehow identify and categorize songs automatically in order for it to be in anyway useful. The undeniable appeal claimed is about how organizations coordinate and share information. > Moreover, it means that every single company agrees that anyone can just write whatever they want to this database, sure. No, you can design it wit…

> Yeah, you are the one claiming that blockchain has to somehow identify and categorize songs automatically in order for it to be in anyway useful.

Nope. Not me. I've even quoted the claims.

> The undeniable appeal claimed is about how organizations coordinate and share information.

Once again. I asked several times: the organisations cannot organise and agree now. Why would they agree in the case of blockchain? Just be cause you say "blockchain" it won't magically happen.

> Aren't those mostly the same assumptions you have to make to have music licensing work at all?

Yes. So. Once again. What's the undeniable appeal of the blockchain? You need all of the exact same assumptions that don't work or work very poorly in the first place, and you decide to add a blockchain on top of that because somehow it will magically make everything work.

So, once again. What exactly does blockchain bring into the equation if everything remains the same?

> Again, don't take Bitcoin's limitations for Blockchain limitations.

Riiight. There apparently exists some magical blockchain that doesn't have any of the limitations that every single blockchain on the market has.

Re: Spotify hit with $1.6B copyright lawsuit

#319
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an endless boon to piracy, which should have largely died if not for the rampant greed and incompetence of publishers.

I agree publishers were incompetent (in clinging onto old models rather than adapting), but has streaming really helped the average artist? Having the option to distribute music for free has been good, for sure Setting the expectation that music should be near enough free, less so You could argue this is one of those public good situations universal income is designed to address, but it certainly hasn't yet.

> but has streaming really helped the average artist?

Sure has helped most of the artists I know, who would never be lucky enough/know the right people to be among the chosen elite that got to participate in the record system.

Streaming services and the internet means that 100000s of artists can have a following of maybe 1000 people each and still make ends meet doing what they love. They won't get filthy rich, but they'll make a living.

Re: Spotify hit with $1.6B copyright lawsuit

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"That's an implementation detail - which is not what copyright is about." No thats exactly what copyright it about. Its called a mechanical license and it is a type of copyright. See: https://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/types_of_copyrights And Specifically: "Mechanical licenses apply to reproduction and distribution of musical works on records and CDs, in permanent digital downloads, and in some other digital uses."…

> Copying bytes of a track into a buffer for transmission is not the same as storing a complete copy of the track on persistent storage i.e a downloaded copy done as part of an "offline sync." Physically they are the same thing. A buffer could be large enough to hold a complete copy and all storage is persistent to greater or lesser degrees. It sounds like you are claiming if you buffered a small track in a future no…

>"Physically they are the same thing. A buffer could be large enough to hold a complete copy and all storage is persistent to greater or lesser degrees."

A buffer is generally understood to mean transient storage, so no not the same at all.

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