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Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

reuters.com

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Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#311

Post by ksec »

petre wrote: post #145
ksec wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erosion of Middle Class "may" have started long before, but it rapidly took off after 2008. ( There are Middle Class / Level wages, but those wages dont put them in Middle Class anymore )* The way I see it, is either Government protect their Workers and working class with benefits and wages, Like what many parts of Europe have done or they allow Union to do it. And i know this is considered an extremely unpopular opi…

Well, companies will just use more robots, fire more workets. Robots don't get unionized, they don't need health insurance or the gov't to step and protect them. European economy is slow compared to the US due to high taxes, too much social protection and needless state meddling in the economy. If they introduce a tax on robots it will only get worse.

Which part of Waitress, Bus Drivers, Cleaners, etc get Robots took over in the past 20 years? ( Not now when AI and Robots are in use, but in the past )

Yes technology was part of it, but rampant inflation or vast increase of liquidity is also another factor, and economist are still puzzled as to why wages aren't going up.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#312

Post by ksec »

rconti wrote: post #160
ksec wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erosion of Middle Class "may" have started long before, but it rapidly took off after 2008. ( There are Middle Class / Level wages, but those wages dont put them in Middle Class anymore )* The way I see it, is either Government protect their Workers and working class with benefits and wages, Like what many parts of Europe have done or they allow Union to do it. And i know this is considered an extremely unpopular opi…

*citation needed. In economic terms, 2008 was basically yesterday. Everything I've read points to the erosion of the middle class being related to stagnant wages in real terms going back DECADES.

Yes, or 30 years ago. The curve just got a lot steeper in 2008. That is from a Global perspective, since US just export inflation to everywhere else. Basically every asset class, mainly property market has been rising much faster then wages. Yes technology has made things much more efficient, hence the much much slower price rise in food, transport, clothes. But the majority of living cost is housing, and that is a part technology has little to no effect on.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#313

Post by petre »

pjc50 wrote: post #215
petre wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, companies will just use more robots, fire more workets. Robots don't get unionized, they don't need health insurance or the gov't to step and protect them. European economy is slow compared to the US due to high taxes, too much social protection and needless state meddling in the economy. If they introduce a tax on robots it will only get worse.

> European economy is slow compared to the US Define "slow". Growth rates are comparable everywhere with France and Germany fractionally ahead of the US: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/31/uk-comes-bo... (of course all of those are pretty low at the moment, which may be a more general post-2008 problem) "Too much social protection" and "high taxes" seem to me to be memes aimed at benefiting the top 1-10…

Slow as in not robust enough. It's essentially on life support since the EU crisis of 2011. The US has pretty much recovered after 2008. Euroscepticism is just a symptom of things going south just about everywhere in Europe except maybe Germany and Switzerland. Just look at the failed ECB stimulus policy with negative interest rates.

The US is at the opposite pole, meaning too little social protection. I was thinking about some kind of middle ground, like in Canada or the UK.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#314

Post by Dylan16807 »

stickfigure wrote: post #232
tw04 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm not going to say that democracy is infallible - in fact, I'm usually the first to point out the exact opposite. But "they don't know what's best for them the way I do" is a pretty dangerous line of reasoning to start heading down. I guess it's a good thing I never said any of the words you both put in my mouth and "quoted". Not once did I say I know what's best for them. Not once did I say they couldn't make dec…

Your words were dismissive of union members whose opinions differ than your own (they're less educated and missing the bigger picture, incapable of evaluating anti-union FUD on their own). Don't be disingenuous, "they don't know what's best for them the way I do" is a very fair representation of your words. Maybe you do? If you're going to take that position, own it.

"Propaganda works" is a fact, it's not being patronizing.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#315

Post by rconti »

RobertoG wrote: post #205
rconti wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely agree free riders are a problem with unions. But that doesn't mean right to work laws shouldn't exist. Maybe it just means unions shouldn't exist. I mean, if your entire business model is flawed, should the world change around your business model? This is more of a devil's advocate position, as I'm not particularly anti-union, but I personally have zero desire to work in a union or be forced to be in one…

"[..] if your entire business model is flawed [..]" Unions go a little deep than the concept of "business model" "[..] I personally have zero desire to work in a union or be forced to be in one." I'm going to speculate that's only because you have good working conditions. "unions [..] have a place in the past" That's a common opinion. What have changed from the past? Because the laws of capitalism tell us that if any…

I don't necessarily disagree with any of your arguments. I have good working conditions, yes. My wife has good working conditions; she's forced to be in a union at her current job, but in previous jobs doing the same work, she was not. She doesn't like them, either, but again, we're both professionals.

However, your reply is structured around trying to convince me that I should be pro-union rather than ambivalent, and does not address the issue at hand; how to square "right to work" laws and the free rider problem with unions.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#316

Post by Daishiman »

stale2002 wrote: post #285
literallycancer wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the point of unions. They aren't here for software engineers making couple hundred grand a year. They are here so that we don't have people losing limbs at work because the company was too cheap to do safety properly. You aren't interested in the service, fine. But I'm not sure why you feel like you need to cry about unions when you aren't their target group anyway?

> You aren't interested in the service, fine. Not if unions get a foothold in my industry, then it won't be "fine". If that happens then they will be able to implement rules and regulations that force me to join them. And yes, there ARE movements to get the tech industry unionized (they aren't very popular, Fortunately). No thanks. I'm a not going to let my industry be ruined like that. I'd rather stop all of that in…

You have zero awareness of class struggles or how much of a chump you're being to the owner o capital. And I don't even have a pinch of Marxism in me.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#317

Post by petre »

ksec wrote: post #311
petre wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, companies will just use more robots, fire more workets. Robots don't get unionized, they don't need health insurance or the gov't to step and protect them. European economy is slow compared to the US due to high taxes, too much social protection and needless state meddling in the economy. If they introduce a tax on robots it will only get worse.

Which part of Waitress, Bus Drivers, Cleaners, etc get Robots took over in the past 20 years? ( Not now when AI and Robots are in use, but in the past ) Yes technology was part of it, but rampant inflation or vast increase of liquidity is also another factor, and economist are still puzzled as to why wages aren't going up.

They weren't cheap enough over the last 20 years. But they took over various manufacturing sectors, from vehicles to food.

Your obvious cleaning suspects are maybe the first ones to go. Most of the floor cleaning nowadays is done by people operating some sort of cleaning vehicle. Also, most niche cleaning jobs requiring more detail won't be replaced by robots soon. Truck and bus drivers will probably go as well, maybe in 20-30 years. Until then, this sector is just going to get more regulated with electronic log books, dynamic weight checks, satellite tracking and such. Waitresses I rather doubt will go away doring my lifetime.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#318

Post by thirdsun »

nindalf wrote: post #128

> The company said salaries paid to its workers were among the highest in the logistic sector and that it also provided some benefits such as private medical insurance or money to pay for training programs. Not a criticism of either Amazon or the unions but I would really appreciate it if news sources would verify these claims one way or another. Obviously as a wire service, that may not be Reuters' job but whether A…

At least in germany the criticism is based on the fact that Amazon considers its business and workforce as part of the lower paying logistics sector, while unions expect Amazon's employess to be paid according to the retail/trade labor contract. That means mentioning the high salary level among logistic workers doesn't address the actual concern of the unions.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#319

Post by rmc »

chimeracoder wrote: post #92
Joeboy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tube drivers are well paid and yes that does impact the levels of sympathy available to them. £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London. Not if you consider it the kind of job where you should be able to afford luxuries like a family, a car, a mortgage, saving for retirement etc. It probably does sound like a lot to people who live outside London and / or aren't considering those thing…

> £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London It's more than the typical software engineer can expect to make in London. Source: Glassdoor, Indeed, talking to colleagues who live in London, and my own memories from my last job search.

Sounds like the software devs should strike too. You're very underpaid in London, which is very expensive.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#320

Post by rmc »

Sujan wrote: post #46

Great way to make sure in the near future Amazon will send packages to Italy from France, Austria, Slovenia or Switzerland - the countries sharing a border with them. (Same happened - and is happening - in Germany. Staff at logistics centers started to strike (in small numbers). Totally unrelated Amazon started shipping from Poland and Czech Republic)

Sounds like all amazon workers across europe should join the same union.
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