With the costs as they are in SF how can these people even afford to live in that area? Is there like low income housing like NY or rent control?
I wish these organizers put at least as much political capital into making housing affordable ...
Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
311–320 of 450 posts
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#312Earlier quoted context omitted.
This isn't really a good thing. Unions do things like engage in age discrimination by favoring senior members over all else. They do things like throw up oppressive barriers to entry, and limited licenses, in order to F over everyone who is not already in the club. Unions are only a good idea for exceptional 1 size fits all situations. For example, there are only a couple major airlines in the industry, and if you ge…
>Unions do things like engage in age discrimination by favoring senior members over all else. I think you mean unions negotiate for relatively higher pay for people who have been with the company longer, or with more experience, but it would also negotiate higher pay for new hires relative to a non-union shop. You're also thinking of manufacturing unions. I suspect a tech union would be a little different. Things lik…
I am not going to support anyone or any group that plans on putting up barriers to entry or outright discrimination.
If a company wants to hire someone, they deserve that job, and it is ridiculous that an uninvolved group would be able to stop that hire from happen.
Them have different color skin, because they were born in an "off shore" country is no excuse to discriminate against them.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#313Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Since there is a short supply of software engineers, why do you think wages haven't risen? They definitely have, at least for the high end of the market. For example, Hired shows a 3.28% increase in salaries for SF engineers this year. [0] > I suspect that's because businesses manipulate that so they can hire offshore workers cheaper. I'm positive that open salary initiatives are not an attempt to hire H1B workers.…
You'd be surprised how many companies aspire to hire Wayne Gretzky - and then complain when he wants new skates every season
I don't dispute that there are poorly-run companies which want to underpay and abuse their developers.
We don't need a union to solve those companies. Just don't work for them.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#314Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Most organisations meaningfully described as unions has a non-trivial element of excluding people from the trade in one way or another. I will never be a part of any organisation that will prevent any person from (trying to) make a living as a programmer in whatever way. The problem is that, once an industry unionizes, you don't really have a choice. The process of decertification is basically a catch-22: unions ar…
"The problem is that, once an industry unionizes, you don't really have a choice." That's entirely false, and intellectually dishonest.
> That's entirely false
Technically, by the letter of the law? Okay. But in practice? No, it's completely true. Your only "choice" is to find a non-unionized job (if one even exists in your field). Decertifying a union is borderline impossible in practice. And if you're in the minority opinion among your coworkers, you're completely out-of-luck, because there's nothing you can do, legally or practically.
> and intellectually dishonest.
You keep saying this phrase a lot, but there's nothing "intellectually dishonest" about explaining the practical problems associated with OP's statement ("I will never be a part of any organisation..."). You can't just use that phrase to dismiss fact-based critiques that you don't like. If you disagree, actually engage with the argument.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#315Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is that abusive? If you want more secure work, don't offer your services as a contractor. Are you trying to suggest that there is something inherently abusive about contracting? What if I don't want a full time gig?
Because if you don't work for someone you die and/or live a terrible life. Without the freedom to choose work, the labor market is not a free market, and the narrative you are trying to push does not apply.
That doesn't make non-rich people victims and rich people abusers when they choose to hire them and pay them their actual market wage. Life is hard for some people. It's not someone else's fault, and someone else shouldn't have their freedom of association and private property rights violated for it
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#316Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Each transaction must be voluntary. That's a regulation, and for that to be binding, it needs to be backed up by coercion and violence. In an unregulated market, whether or not one can shoot people, or whether or not transactions should be voluntary, would be decided like everything else by success or failure through competition in the marketplace. You can't have free market except for this one little rule ... that'…
You absolutely need government force to enforce the rule that you can't use a gun to make somebody give you their wallet. That is not what I disagree with. Calling this a market regulation is what I disagree with. > You can't have free market except for this one little rule... that's just a very weakly regulated market. In what sense is that a market at all? Market implies that the transactions are voluntary. Unregul…
> Market implies that the transactions are voluntary.
That doesn't have to be true for all parties. Referring to your earlier comment, that "an unregulated market doesn't mean that you can shoot people," I would claim that, yes it does - all that's needed is for someone to pay you to shoot people. Murder for hire, extortion, blackmail, piracy and slavery are all examples of valid markets with non-voluntary participation. Morally reprehensible, but still valid.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#317Earlier quoted context omitted.
This isn't really a good thing. Unions do things like engage in age discrimination by favoring senior members over all else. They do things like throw up oppressive barriers to entry, and limited licenses, in order to F over everyone who is not already in the club. Unions are only a good idea for exceptional 1 size fits all situations. For example, there are only a couple major airlines in the industry, and if you ge…
Who said anything about a 1 size fits all solution? Why do you insist that's how it has to be? The Screen Actors Guild, the Directors Guild, and the Writers Guild don't work like that. Pro athlete unions don't work like that. Why would you think that tech would have to?
The whole point of those groups is to put up barriers to entry, which is something I extremely oppose.
It is also about forcing people into their collective bargaining process. I do not want anyone else to ever negotiate for me. I will negotiate for myself, because I am the one person who is most incentived to look out for myself.
Furthermore, once a union is established, it is very difficult to opt out. The screen actors, writers, ect guild have contracts with companies that FORCE you to join their group if you want to accept the job.
I oppose that wholeheartedly. I will never support groups that either put put barriers to entry, force me to have them negotiate for me, or that attempt to force people into joining them on condition of employment.
No. Instead of ever being put into a position where joining the union is a precondition for employment, I will just oppose unions in my industry before they can even get a foothold.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#318Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a tech union would significantly raise the wages of technical people. A past job, I automated away jobs at $0.10 on the dollar and made a healthy salary, but it obviously was 1/10th of what I was worth. I left that company and all those jobs are still automated away and the more the company grows, the more they save. Also a tech union could push for perks like developer offices, remote work, better work equip…
> I think a tech union would significantly raise the wages of technical people. By what mechanism? Either they engage in collective bargaining, which is filled with problems, or artificially constrict the supply of labor by requiring additional licensing. Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive. From where I'm standing, the current system w…
> Considering there is already a shortage of software engineers, constricting it further is unlikely to be net positive.
"Shortage of software engineers": The myth that just won't die. If this were true, salaries would be skyrocketing, companies wouldn't have the luxury of being as picky as they are, and open reqs wouldn't attract hundreds of applicants.
> I just accepted a new job and the process of getting there involved talking to about two dozen companies, narrowing those down to 6 or 7 offers and having each company submit a bid (initial offer). I pruned off the bottom half and had the top 2-3 companies submit revised bids based on competitor info and ultimately chose a company which offered a great mix of compensation and role/culture.
Congratulations. While I don't doubt your story, you must realize your experience is an extreme outlier. Most people I know consider themselves lucky to get one offer after talking to two dozen companies, if that. With no alternatives, you have little power to negotiate: you take it or leave it. And once you're hired, it's no different than any other job--you are employed at the will of your employer. Any day can be your last.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#319Earlier quoted context omitted.
But it doesn't avoid low wages. It's a zero sum wage redistribution from other workers and from future workers to present unionized workers. If everyone was unionized, and if there were zero profits, then unionisation would have zero benefit for any worker. Also low wages are not an externality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality The point of letting the market modulate supply and demand is that it encourages…
> low wages are not an externality The social cost of poverty is surely an externality. If you don't pay people enough to cover their healthcare, to give them the ability to provide a stable family environment or have a reasonable housing situation then the cost will have to be paid somewhere else in the system. And it probably will cost the economy more the further down the line it finally bubble up. > The point of…
>The social cost of poverty is surely an externality.
There may be some externalities associated by poverty, but the same could extend to taxing corporations more. You don't reduce poverty by moving private wealth around by government fiat anyway.
>Only assuming a perfect market.
Free markets are an ideal to strive toward. The unattainability of the ideal isn't a reason to abandon its pursuit. Economies work better when the ideal is pursued and artificial barriers to contracting and private property rights aren't hoisted on people via legislation.
But I digress, if you'd like to discuss this in more detail, please post a thread in a more appropriate forum.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#320Earlier quoted context omitted.
Won't last long. Few more years, and it will be a autonomous fleet anyways.
You might have missed this discussion from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15116861
That discussion is extremely weird. Posters are claiming that since Speech recognition took decades so must self driving cars. Speech recognition decades ago has nothing to do with speech recognition today.
I understand the skepticism but I hope HN posters can make stronger arguments in the future.