US quits Paris climate pact • Hacker News Board

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#311

Post by wcummings » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 10:34 PM UTC

aaron-lebo wrote: post #85

dismantlethesun wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the US isn't a good global leader. It is, after all, only the aftermath of WW2 that left enough of a power vacuum for two countries at the edges of "proprer civilisation" like the USA and Russia to take the central position as the world superpowers. I wouldn't be sad if the USA returns to a position of only interfering within its sphere of influence in North and South America. Being a global leader isn't mere…

What? The US is a nation of immigrants. It doesn't see other nations as "other" any more than any other nation, and probably less so because we're very culturally diverse. But yeah, if you want to go back to the days where benevolent places like the British Empire, Imperial Germany, and the USSR ruled the world, have at it. Because they were benevolent, right? The US isn't doing a great job, but if American power get…

Not sure why this is getting downvoted. Maybe this doesn't hold as much water now, but compared to most countries, the US is pretty light on ethnic nationalism. I trust the US as a hegemon more than most countries.

>The US isn't doing a great job, but if American power gets rolled back, are you ready for Russia to come rolling into Eastern Europe?

Jesus fucking Christ I am not ready, and neither is Eastern Europe. I think everyone remembers what happened last time Russia was in charge over there...

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#312

Post by tanilama » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 10:36 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #170

pvnick wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because the previous president decided to unilaterally bind the country to the agreement rather than seek treaty ratification from Congress. It is a risk that ruling by executive decree entails.

Other countries don't care about post-facto rationalizations by partisans to demonize the other side in domestic policies. The USA cannot be trusted as an ally. That is the takeaway here. Saying that "but Obama's worse than Trump!!!" isn't changing that and is entirely besides the point. ETA: And, for what its worth, the Senate ratified NATO, and that hasn't stopped Trump and Republicans from doing their utmost to sa…

Exactly. If US's as a superpower can flip-flop every 4 years, then any promise it makes in the long term is not trustworthy. A country loses its vision, cannot lead the world. And it will be ludicrous to have a country with severe infighting to determine the future of your own country. That is just too much of a fantasy.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#313

Post by zzalpha » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 10:36 PM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #224

rayiner wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CFC problem was a narrow one, and the Montreal protocol was implemented a decade after development started on CFC alternatives. At the time Montreal was implemented, there was a clear picture of how to get from point A to point B. Climate change is in comparison a moon shot. We don't know what will work and how it'll work. There's not some single thing we can ban and fix the problem. It calls for structural chang…

Citation needed. Solar, wind, EV and now even electrical storage are being jump started with tax credits.

Solar, wind, EV and now even electrical storage are being jump started with tax credits.

Were. At least if Trump gets his way:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/20...

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#314

Post by sparkzilla » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 10:38 PM UTC

glup wrote: post #303

sparkzilla wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would that be the 'Nobel prize winner' Dr Mann, who massaged the so-called hockey stick data leading to all this climate change/global warming hysteria in the first place? Hardly a credible source of anything IMHO.

cite your sources please

https://www.amazon.com/22A-Disgrace-Profession-22-Steyn-edit...

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#315

Post by cirath » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 10:40 PM UTC

knz wrote: post #216

rayiner wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you believe the USA should be involved at all on the international stage, this creation of new public knowledge is a big detriment to that end. The belief that the U.S. needs to be involved in the international stage is based on the fallacious assumption that international cooperation can fix climate change. There is no scenario in which that happens. Without fundamental technological leaps, we'd have to decreas…

> The belief that the U.S. needs to be involved in the international stage It's in the financial interests of the US to be involved on the international stage. I listened to Trump's speech today and heard nothing but "Boohoo, it's so hard to be America". The reality is that the US is the gorilla in every room - we have the largest economy, largest military, and American hegemony has been a massive benefit to the coun…

> When did American exceptionalism turn into "It's too hard so I'm going to do nothing"?

That's been a painfully common refrain in the current generation of political discourse (though the generational line is difficult to pinpoint; there seem to be as many young people talking about it as 60 year old lifetime senators).

Climate change? Hard to deal with, we should do nothing.

Gun control? They will take all our guns, or take none, and the second amendment said I could have guns. There is no middle ground.

But the root cause is polarization; rather than middle grounds, shades of gray, or compromises, everything in the current political climate seems to boil down to black or white, right or wrong, with no space between.

It's... Hard to watch, some days.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#316

Post by nthcolumn » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 10:42 PM UTC

_ph_ wrote: post #251

nthcolumn wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is exiting NATO. They have already deferred any spending commitment until after BREXIT (UK leaving the EU). I don't think Trump's weird behaviour prompted Merkel's 'We can't depend on them anymore' speech. But bad? meh. depends if you think the demise of NATO is bad.

German here - Germany is certainly not exiting the Nato. Quite the contrary. The large part of the German defense forces are deployed on Nato duties. Former Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Turkey (supporting the fight agains the IS).

I have quite rightly been asked for sources. Do you have any that state on the contrary? Janes perhaps?

http://www.janes.com/article/69728/bundeswehr-plans-reorient...

Yes they are now but the shift is towards a European army without NATO. Is Der Speigel not also German? And what has that got to do with it?

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#317

Post by vorg » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 10:42 PM UTC

I'd say certain countries have gotten together behind the scenes to take turns playing bad cop. Now it's America's turn, a few years ago it was Australia who refused to sign.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

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Post by ciconia » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 10:44 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #271

mikeash wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing about three decades of right-wing propaganda. President Trump is the logical conclusion of The Rush Limbaugh Show, Fox News, and other assorted media. These people systematically created a tribal political environment where facts don't matter, ridicule is the best argument, and Democrats are the enemy. They've been pounding this into the heads of any American who would listen since the late 1980s or so…

> Add in the electoral college, which gives a substantial advantage to candidates who can win rural voters, and here we are. Don't forget our ridiculous Congressional system that greatly over-weights the opinions of rural voters. California has 80 times the number of people as Wyoming, yet they both get two seats in the Senate and 1/53rd the number of representatives in the House.

Giving more political power to rural areas is not necessarily a bad thing. One can argue that it is beneficial in that it compensates for the sparseness of those areas and lets them participate in the game on the national stage.

I think the problem with rural areas is not their overly great political influence but rather the fact that they have been abandoned by mainstream politicians.

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#319

Post by danans » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 10:50 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #76

scarmig wrote: post #51

This is one of those situations where you should be shaking your head, even if you're a climate change denying conservative or a fussil fuel industrial interest. The Paris pact was pretty toothless: it was a step forward, but heavily aspirational. Indeed, one of the stated complaints of conservatives was that it did nothing to enforce compliance. The Trump Administration could have just as well ignored it without for…

Yes, the Paris pact was toothless. It was never going to work, just like Kyoto didn't work. So what's wrong with pulling out of it? Consternation over the Paris accord is, in my opinion, elitist liberal virtue signaling. (Here in the DC/MD/VA area, everyone will complain about this move at Starbucks sipping on lattes while driving one hour each way to work from their McMansion in the exurbs. God forbid we do anything…

Because we know that the course that this administration does take in lieu of Paris will likely worsen climate change - it's not like they are going to introduce a carbon tax instead. It's symbolically relevant as an indication of the direction we are going.

Also, a significant chunk of liberals who are concerned about this are people who have made often difficult carbon-reducing lifestyle changes consistent with their beliefs on this issues, even at the cost of traditional comforts (large houses, big cars, etc).

Lattes really have nothing to do with this issue, except as some kind of cheap-shot stereotype unrelated to the issue, and last I heard, McMansion-filled exurbia leans pretty strongly conservative:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/2/9/1274795/-Democrats-ar...

Re: US quits Paris climate pact

#320

Post by digitalmaster » Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 10:50 PM UTC

davesque wrote: post #305

davesque wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly. I've seriously begun to consider ways in which I could get set up over seas. I've always wanted to spend some time abroad anyway. It's very hard for me to see a way that the US can get back on track at this point. Most of Congress doesn't seem to really care about the damage that Trump is doing to our reputation. Furthermore, Republicans have successfully neutered (through gerrymandering) the system that wo…

And, to that end, does anyone have any advice?

if ur in tech.. I've heard great things about Chiang Mai and they digital nomad scene.