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CEOs Want Their Offices Back

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Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#311

Post by erobbins »

hotsauceror wrote: post #156
varelse wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like the cargo cult Agile pandemic peaked a few years ago, I suspect we're reaching peak open floor plans right now. The overall negative effects of an open floor plan for a significant fraction of engineers (though not all) is self-evident and backed up by reams of data stretching back nearly 40 years: http://iansommerville.com/software-engineering-book/web/work... TLDR: 100 square feet of personal space is opt…

Cargo Cult is exactly right. Our organization is selling us this right now. "We're creating a more collaborative atmosphere! Facebook does it, this must be what IT people want." (Any discussion of paying IT staff like FB, though, is "well, we're not an IT company, and besides we're mission driven!") Because they don't think we're mature enough to accept that they want to squeeze more bodies unto a smaller space, for…

I work at FB. A LOT of us hate the open plan.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#312

Post by kps »

ig1 wrote: post #226
varelse wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like the cargo cult Agile pandemic peaked a few years ago, I suspect we're reaching peak open floor plans right now. The overall negative effects of an open floor plan for a significant fraction of engineers (though not all) is self-evident and backed up by reams of data stretching back nearly 40 years: http://iansommerville.com/software-engineering-book/web/work... TLDR: 100 square feet of personal space is opt…

Using a study of programmers in the 1970s (where not punching the wrong hole in punch cards was a critical skill) for programmers in 2017 may not give you the most useful data.

Point of order: a punch card environment would have typists do the actual keypunching. Programmers wrote on paper coding forms by hand.

Of course writing out programs by hand is also a long obsolete and useless skill — except for interviews at all the top companies, where it's vital.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#313

Post by ericd »

opo wrote: post #283
ericd wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you feel about larger offices that fit ~8, and housed your entire immediate team, but no one else? Your manager would go to another room for their meetings with other parts of the organization, and you all would be free to collaborate as needed, or shut up as needed?

>How would you feel about larger offices that fit ~8, and housed your entire immediate team, but no one else? I've experienced that kind of environment and it is slightly better than the sea of tables filling a floor but is still very bad. A few of the things I've noticed: - Collaboration inside an individual team was never a problem with individual offices and so it isn't noticeably improved - Unless the programming…

Thanks for the feedback on the idea. My main complaint with open floor plan is the level of background noise is very high, and of a very distracting type. Within teams, though, we'd often gather around to discuss solutions to tough problems before we coded them up. This was all ad-hoc, so it did help that we were all in the same area. The main thing I could have done without was the cross chatter from other teams.

Small call rooms were available throughout to address the private call issue, so there was never any sort of hunt.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#314

Post by ericd »

s73ver wrote: post #303
cr0sh wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the best spaces I ever worked in was at my employer prior to my current employer. When I started work at the company, they had hired a couple of other guys as well, but they didn't have as much experience in software development for an employer (one had done mainly contract work alone, the other was fresh outta college but earned a compsci masters). They didn't have a cubical to put us each in (they were plann…

So here's one of the reasons I dislike not having offices: I actually really like having the lights on. I want things to be nice and bright. I hate it when things are dark and dungeon like. If we had separate offices, we could each make our space as we wish. I could be lit, and you could be dark. No one would have to fight over the setup.

You might get exactly your way with environmental preferences, but you miss out on the collegial atmosphere of working in the same space with a few other people you really like. I love that aspect of small shared offices, and was one of the things I really enjoyed about working on a small startup.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#315

Post by sidlls »

varelse wrote: post #139
LoSboccacc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many large company will do but the large brunt of codetariat working for cash strapped business living and dying according to investors and customers will be keept in the open spaces: they looks cool in photos, convey a reassuring sense of "working bees" and sells well to visiting customers, so I fear the open plan it's here to stay.

HR is driven by data. To kill open floor plans, start citing the floor plan as the primary reason for leaving. If that becomes a theme, IMO open floor plans will become cancer. It just takes time.

I find it's best to work as though HR is driven by one thing: their mission is to protect the company from adverse employee action. They are agents of the company, not of employees, and it's best to assume they view employees almost as adversaries. Not necessarily enemies, per see, but definitely not 100% aligned with the best interests of the company.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#316

Post by ericd »

pseudalopex wrote: post #275
ericd wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you feel about larger offices that fit ~8, and housed your entire immediate team, but no one else? Your manager would go to another room for their meetings with other parts of the organization, and you all would be free to collaborate as needed, or shut up as needed?

Team rooms are better than open plan, but 8 is enough for irrelevant discussions, mechanical keyboards, and crunchy snacks to reach critical mass.

Fair, maybe 4-6 is a better max. You can also shame the mechanical keyboard user mercilessly for bothering everyone else.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#317

Post by CorvusCrypto »

Joeri wrote: post #247
CorvusCrypto wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You made me think of something interesting. My 4 hours NEVER happens and I'm in a cube-farm/closed space. Interruptions happen all the damn time. Sure we don't like our focus interrupted, but that's what work is. It's dealing with the managers and leads that need to ask you something urgent while managing your deadlines and dealing with noise which is still very much present in a closed-office area unless you are the…

Sure we don't like our focus interrupted, but that's what work is. It's dealing with the managers and leads that need to ask you something urgent while managing your deadlines and dealing with noise which is still very much present in a closed-office area unless you are the board members that get to work remote. It really isn't normal to be constantly interrupted. I'm a developer managing 2 other devs and dealing wit…

Could just be the California style. Or finance. Don't really know any other office locales so this could be true.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#318

Post by ericd »

Corrado wrote: post #292
ericd wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you feel about larger offices that fit ~8, and housed your entire immediate team, but no one else? Your manager would go to another room for their meetings with other parts of the organization, and you all would be free to collaborate as needed, or shut up as needed?

I think one of my best working environments had two pods of 4 people each in one closed off room. One pod had developers and the other had non developers (project leaders, DBAs, etc.) It combined just the right amount of togetherness and separate space and worked wonderfully! Another great environment was inside an old bank vault. Me and one other developer. No windows, two doors, lights down low, thumping techno mus…

Nice, I like 4, that's the number we had at my last startup, and it worked well. I figured that the max reasonable team size was 8, but I think your solution (two rooms of 4) strikes a nice balance of noise and allowing the entire team to be very close to each other when they need to be.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#319

Post by ericd »

cr0sh wrote: post #284
ericd wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you feel about larger offices that fit ~8, and housed your entire immediate team, but no one else? Your manager would go to another room for their meetings with other parts of the organization, and you all would be free to collaborate as needed, or shut up as needed?

One of the best spaces I ever worked in was at my employer prior to my current employer. When I started work at the company, they had hired a couple of other guys as well, but they didn't have as much experience in software development for an employer (one had done mainly contract work alone, the other was fresh outta college but earned a compsci masters). They didn't have a cubical to put us each in (they were plann…

Haha that sounds awesome. Horribly sweaty, but a lot of fun, kind of like a little scrappy startup inside a bigger company. I'm guessing your guys' team spirit was off the charts. Thanks for sharing that.

I guess maybe the key to making this work is actually having teammates that like each other. A lot of devs seem to really hate working near other people, and are very particular about their setup, so I guess for them, individual offices are much better. But if you like your teammates, I'd much rather work in the same room with them than in a room all by myself.

Re: CEOs Want Their Offices Back

#320

Post by goeric »

I think people forget, or maybe don't realize, open floor plans were popularized in the startup world because of their cost savings. It's very hard/expensive to rent office space with enough rooms for everyone, or build one out that way. It's way easier to put a bunch of IKEA desks next to each other.

I'm not saying there's not a better way, but that's the justification. Anybody trying to convince others that open floor plans are more productive is living in crazy town.

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