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Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

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Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#311

Post by throwaway2016a »

pbecotte wrote: post #295
throwaway2016a wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with you. I am in disagreement with our CEO on that one. But unfortunately it's all we can afford to give so at least it is something. I have had a number of heart to hearts with devs to make sure their expectations on stock options are set right.

This statement makes no sense. If you feel that the company doesn't pay enough, there are two possibilities. 1. You get paid way more then your teams rate, proving the CEO is not being truthful (there is more money if people negotiate hard enough) 2. You are also underpaid and are doing yourself a disservice by staying

Unfortunately it is #2. I am underpaid by over 75%. The average on the team is under by about 30 - 50%... so not only am I underpaid I am underpaid quite a lot more than others in the company. I do, however, have quite a bit more stock options.

And the CEO from what I understand went two years without a paycheck. But he is independently wealthy (I am not).

I stay for various personal reasons. Reasons that the other people on the team don't have.

And because 75% underpaid is still enough to support me and my family with a modest lifestyle.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#312

Post by poikniok »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #311
pbecotte wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This statement makes no sense. If you feel that the company doesn't pay enough, there are two possibilities. 1. You get paid way more then your teams rate, proving the CEO is not being truthful (there is more money if people negotiate hard enough) 2. You are also underpaid and are doing yourself a disservice by staying

Unfortunately it is #2. I am underpaid by over 75%. The average on the team is under by about 30 - 50%... so not only am I underpaid I am underpaid quite a lot more than others in the company. I do, however, have quite a bit more stock options. And the CEO from what I understand went two years without a paycheck. But he is independently wealthy (I am not). I stay for various personal reasons. Reasons that the other p…

Honestly this sounds terrible. From what you have said it seems fairly clear that you are being exploited by the CEO / others. And what does it even mean that the CEO (who presumably owns a large portion of the company) went without pay for two year when he is independently wealthy? You sound quite intelligent so just think about it, if he was paying himself a salary it would just be transferring money from his bank account to his bank account again, all while being taxed. The fact that this is used as a mitigating factor to argue that you are not getting screwed is absurd, for your sake I hope you go out to the marketplace and get paid what you deserve.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#313

Post by logicallee »

humanrebar wrote: post #253
logicallee wrote: post #24

On the other hand it means that anyone with that salary can easily (no sacrifices of any kind) take a salary of $0 for two years, for equity alone, if the right idea and team comes along. So here's a question: does that happen? For a hint as to the answer, consider the existence of the word xoogler.

That's called being a partner, right?

Yes, cofounder. (That is exactly what my comment was about - sorry I wasn't clearer.)

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#314

Post by fulafel »

bradleyjg wrote: post #184
phd514 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when does remote mean a lower salary? I work remotely in the US and I expect (and receive) a market rate salary that's not based on my location. Offering me a lower salary because I've chosen to live in a lower cost-of-living city will ensure that I don't consider working for you. It's not always an employee's market, but while it is, I intend to take full advantage of it.

Of course it means a lower salary. There are some number of jobs out there and most of them don't want remote workers. Job applicants that are willing to take jobs that forbid remote work can also apply to those that permit remote work, while workers that will only look at jobs that allow remote work can only apply to the small subset that allow it. It's straightforward micro-economic exercise to see that the when yo…

It works both ways. Even in this "perfect market" model, the remote salary will be higher if there is lower labour supply in the empolyer's local labour market than the global remote labour market.

I don't think there is more aversion to remote work on the employer side than on the employee side, so that effect should not turn the tables.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#315

Post by pedrosorio »

spapas82 wrote: post #208
pedrosorio wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"most of these people are better than the ones in Silicon Valley since they are working in their own country which the jobs are not much instead of migrating to a different place to find a job" These people are better than the ones in Silicon Valley because they refuse to emigrate? I don't follow your logic.

Sorry, I probably didn't make myself clear (english is not my main language): Here in Greece there are not too many jobs on local (Greek) companies because of the economical crisis and repression. Definitely there are more candidates than jobs. So most of these jobs would probably be given to the better / more experienced developers while, other, not so good developers will try to emigrate to other countries to find…

I see. What you mean is that the average employed developer in Greece is better than the average Greek developer due to competition for jobs and culture of attachment to the homeland.

This may be true, but it has little relation to quality of the average developer in Silicon Valley.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#316

Post by znq »

genericpseudo wrote: post #259
znq wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. A lot of it is based on trust and a future that no one can predict nor guarantee. We're a small company of 20 (in my opinion) great people and we just have a different relationship with our employees than most other business owners. While I totally get that the future is always uncertain, I think past actions of myself and our management team (which also includes employees) speak a lot for how we are p…

> We're a small company of 20 (in my opinion) great people and we just have a different relationship with our employees than most other business owners. If that's not embodied in contract then it's, regrettably, close to worthless. Companies change, managers change, leadership changes, philosophy changes, contracts only change when they're renegotiated.

Why would you want to change something that works perfectly fine for everyone?

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#317

Post by znq »

user5994461 wrote: post #257
znq wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. A lot of it is based on trust and a future that no one can predict nor guarantee. We're a small company of 20 (in my opinion) great people and we just have a different relationship with our employees than most other business owners. While I totally get that the future is always uncertain, I think past actions of myself and our management team (which also includes employees) speak a lot for how we are p…

> I think past actions of myself and our management team (which also includes employees) speak a lot for how we are probably gonna do things in the future In my experience it doesn't. Soon the company is too big to known everyone, new managements and leaders emerge, whether you want it or not. There are a lot of people joining in a growing startup. They will outnumber the current employees quickly and shift the curre…

That is true, if you build a company for growth. We built our company for lifestyle. We don't need to show off that we have 200 employees and make X million in revenue. While other people are busy bragging about it, we go skiing together. Different mindset.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#318

Post by zerr »

ashark wrote: post #96
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that Google often has A class talent doing B or C class work; e.g. an expert in PL will often be working on ads. Sure the pay is great, but it can feel soul sucking. A startup can be appealing to some talented people if the work is interesting, even if the pay isn't as good.

Their attention span for products and tendency to half-ass things that aren't highly visible (Android SDK and documentation comes to mind) supports this notion. It's exactly what I'd expect from a company hiring 100% A players but needing 95% B-C work—avoid and shirk until you can land on a greenfield project, work on that until it's boring, then jump ship to another company or a more interesting project, because god…

Being/becoming good at CS-riddles (i.e. passing Google-like interviews) doesn't necessary correlate to being A player on the real job. So one might say Google employs a lot of B/C players (who just passed their interviews) where being A is a requirement for the job.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#319

Post by tibbon »

humanrebar wrote: post #228
tibbon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ooof, those rates are indeed pretty low. I get why you're doing it, but could having access to more engineers easier maybe help get you to profitability faster? I find interviewing a bunch of good people, making offers and then having them turn down the position because of money to be a big waste of time/money. How many hours/dollars do you spend in that 6 months? I had students leaving my classes at General Assembly…

> I'm trying to think creatively about benefits that would make me consider a 90k salary. Pay my rent, absolutely free childcare, and 100% covered healthcare costs? > The #1 thing that could entice me, over salary, would be some way for my employer to help me secure a decent mortgage... You mean cosign? Otherwise that just looks like a really big signing bonus.

Sure, and/or work with a bank to get me better rates, closing costs covered, etc. Some of it could be a signing bonus I guess?

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#320

Post by tibbon »

humanrebar wrote: post #228
tibbon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ooof, those rates are indeed pretty low. I get why you're doing it, but could having access to more engineers easier maybe help get you to profitability faster? I find interviewing a bunch of good people, making offers and then having them turn down the position because of money to be a big waste of time/money. How many hours/dollars do you spend in that 6 months? I had students leaving my classes at General Assembly…

> I'm trying to think creatively about benefits that would make me consider a 90k salary. Pay my rent, absolutely free childcare, and 100% covered healthcare costs? > The #1 thing that could entice me, over salary, would be some way for my employer to help me secure a decent mortgage... You mean cosign? Otherwise that just looks like a really big signing bonus.

And yea, 100% coverage of childcare (or student loans) could help a lot. I don't have kids, but I've heard about those costs being astronomical.

If that's too expensive for the company, perhaps starting a childcare program with some other startups could lower that cost?

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