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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#311

Post by tmptmp »

jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

Charismatic? Yes, but so was Hitler and Osama bin Laden. Revolutionary? yes, but so was Hitler.

So, let's get it clear that that doesn't make him humane and good for society.

>>If you think you're better, then do better. Be better. Don't refuse to acknowledge the humanity of another person because you believe you can totalize their entire life under a cheap tagline.

This is a disingenuous advice.

Will you not criticize Hitler? So, do you propose to acknowledge the humanity of Hitler and don't criticize him? Castro would have happily become Hitler, if he could get power.

Criticizing him or anyone is not necessarily reducing them to a tagline. He deserves much and harsh criticism than most thugs, criminals and religious extremists in the world. He was an extremely cruel, dictator with no remorse for his cruel and inhumane actions.

But what do you expect from a follower of communism? Communism is a very vicious ideology which leaves no room for any type of dissent. You either toe the party-line or get killed/maimed/imprisoned.

Sad, this criminal didn't die a lot earlier.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#312

Post by crdoconnor »

Hondor wrote: post #221
meric wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like how US saved Haiti and Libya and Iraq, right?

More like how it saved South Korea. Saving usually hasn't worked, but that's one clear counterexample.

It didn't try to "save" South Korea from itself it tried to build it up into an industrial bulwark against the Soviet Union.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#313

Post by witty_username »

oblio wrote: post #273
tekni5 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just want to mention that actual communism has never been implemented on any significant scale, the Soviet Union for example never reached communism, arguably never even really reached socialism. Marx suggested that communism will only emerge after the failure of capitalism. Every single communist regime has ignored this idea. While I agree that many countries who have followed communist ideas have done some horrible…

Theoretical communism is useless and this "no true Scotsman" argument is useless, at least for the foreseeable future. How is communism going to handle malicious parties, since there's no ownership? How is communism going to handle needs for abstract needs, such as those for services? Marx didn't really think things through. You don't need strong AI, you need the singularity to centrally plan humanity. Until then you…

Central planning is very hard due to hidden preferences.

People aren't going to say "I want more loli hentai".

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#314

Post by KON_Air »

50CNT wrote: post #298
wildmusings wrote: post #259

Quoted post unavailable.

Though socially frowned upon, you could make the same argument substituting Stalin or Hitler, and it'd still make sense. Matter of fact, Germans regularly do. "Never again" requires you to view what happened objectively. If you viewed Hitler as a bogeyman, an anomaly, it becomes easy to argue that it won't happen again, but letting your guard down is precisely what will let it happen again. Because "Class Warfare", "…

"Never again" yeah, right.

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21710847-germanys-chanc...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/06/europe-forges-ahe...

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#315

Post by tekni5 »

oblio wrote: post #273
tekni5 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just want to mention that actual communism has never been implemented on any significant scale, the Soviet Union for example never reached communism, arguably never even really reached socialism. Marx suggested that communism will only emerge after the failure of capitalism. Every single communist regime has ignored this idea. While I agree that many countries who have followed communist ideas have done some horrible…

Theoretical communism is useless and this "no true Scotsman" argument is useless, at least for the foreseeable future. How is communism going to handle malicious parties, since there's no ownership? How is communism going to handle needs for abstract needs, such as those for services? Marx didn't really think things through. You don't need strong AI, you need the singularity to centrally plan humanity. Until then you…

The principles of communism aren't that different from capitalism, you work and get rewarded, the same way it happens right now. Communism is simply a system that places limits on individuals so that they do not exploit others and so they do not own the means of production. To avoid a concentration of resources/wealth for a small group of the population, because by just pure ownership and wealth such individuals can enslave humanity.

In my personal opinion, I don't think that if communism ever emerges it will be through forced means as it was before, I think it will occur naturally where Capitalism will simply fail in certain areas and the system will need to change.

For example say in 100 years, climate change causes enormous damage worldwide in various aspects of life. At this point perhaps governments will realize we can't just exploit raw resources, pollute and allow people to do what they want, so new economic systems emerge that utilize central planning and needs based production and distribution as to avoid harm, it will no longer be simply market driven. Just a rough example, of what could happen.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#316

Post by varjag »

geezerjay wrote: post #257
meric wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like how US saved Haiti and Libya and Iraq, right?

> Like how US saved Haiti and Libya and Iraq, right? Libya was a NATO intervention that was pushed and led by France, specifically Sarkozy's government.

It also ended up a lot better than non-intervention in Syria. Although make no mistake, the USA is blamed for both anyway.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#317

Post by kekimo »

50CNT wrote: post #298
wildmusings wrote: post #259

Quoted post unavailable.

Though socially frowned upon, you could make the same argument substituting Stalin or Hitler, and it'd still make sense. Matter of fact, Germans regularly do. "Never again" requires you to view what happened objectively. If you viewed Hitler as a bogeyman, an anomaly, it becomes easy to argue that it won't happen again, but letting your guard down is precisely what will let it happen again. Because "Class Warfare", "…

This is false, the Germans didn't learn anything at all from WWIII. If they did learn anything, they learned the wrong lessons. Germans learned that one shouldn't wage war, that there is no such thing as 'better' cultures or societies, that one should under no circumstances label any group, that one must be tolerant towards anyone at all cost. What do Germans do then, once we start talking about cultures where infant genital mutilation is the norm? What do Germans say, when confronted with the fact that certain religious ideologies push for LGBT people being shot, hanged or thrown from rooftops? What do germans say, when one takes any western, developed or not, society and compares it with others known for legitimizing rape, child marriage and even pedophilia? What do Germans do when the group to be labeled is indeed the enemy? All Germans say is: "WWIII taught us ." Therefore, everything you have mentioned is perfectly fine, since it takes place in small numbers and in a culture we do not understand. Small for who? Of course, small for those who have the provilege of observing reality from afar. Then, in a very German fashion, everyone who disagrees with their utopic rosa-tainted view of the world is a Nazi and deserves to be socially isolated and ostraziced! Well, they did, indeed, learn nothing from WWIII.

Trust me, I live here, love politics and philosophy and discuss these topics with all my German acquaintances and friends. I respet them for many reasons, but being ethically and morally mature and capable as a society is not one of those reasons.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#318

Post by hkt »

wildmusings wrote: post #236
Animats wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fulgencio Batista was better?

We are talking about Fidel's regime and how he decided to rule. Batista was an evil man and a bad ruler, but the economic and societal destruction of communism is in its own category, as is the level of totalitarian control that the Castro regime has imposed, which includes a committee in each neighborhood responsible for suppressing dissent. Because of how backwards Cuba is today, everyone thinks it was always like…

The fixation people have with expanding middle classes is odd. I'd say progress where the poorest are included in social gains is more valuable than any other kind. Otherwise we end up with societies like the US where some parts of the population live in ghettoes worthy of the worst of the third world.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#319

Post by int_19h »

swah wrote: post #294
int_19h wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet there are plenty of people who feel positive about Stalin. It's good to at least understand why.

Bush & Trump on the other hand...

It's good to understand why some people feel positive about them, as well.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#320

Post by crdoconnor »

gaius wrote: post #309
IslaDeEncanta wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are ignorant of the reality of Cuban society. People have been able to leave Cuba freely since 1980. Cuba is a participatory democracy, with essentially every adult being involved. Internet access was not really a priority with the USSR collapsing and the recovery from that, but it is being quickly broadened. Only those who actively attempt to undermine the Cuban democracy are imprisoned, but people are free to v…

None of that is true. I've been to Havana; I've seen the buildings where 3 families are crammed into an apartment meant for one, where the windows are covered with cardboard because there's no glass, the electricity is on a few hours a day, where the concrete is crumbling so badly you could break it off with your fingers. And I've seen just outside town the gorgeous villas with manicured gardens and water features, w…

Try working on minimum wage in London.
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